Automatic Bilge Pump Cycling?

Status
Not open for further replies.
druid

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I just bought a Rule Automatic bilge pump, and I'm a bit concerned about the way it works. Apparently it detects water by running a bit and checking for resistance. Now, the bottom of my bilge is fairly small and I have quite a long run for the outlet hose (about 10 ft), so I can imagine the "backwash" of the water in the outlet hose coming back into the bilge when the pump stops to be enough to present resistance, which will start the pump again, which will fill the outlet hose, which will drain back into the bilge... and so on.

Unless these pumps have a check-valve to prevent this from happening (which I haven't ever seen in a bilge pump in 40 years). My calculations say the backwash will be about 1.6 litres.

Does anybody have experience with these pumps, especially with a longer outlet hose?

druid
"Wind Drift" Ontario 32
 
syoun10

syoun10

.
Jan 28, 2012
101
2006 Hunter 33 Santa Barbara
druid said:
I just bought a Rule Automatic bilge pump,

Does anybody have experience with these pumps, especially with a longer outlet hose?

druid
"Wind Drift" Ontario 32
Click to expand
YES,

I have a Rule pump that has given me nothing but trouble!!!

I believe it is a 750gph model (but may have to check).

It worked fine for several years, then started to malfunction. What would happen is that it would not switch off. To get it off, I would have to take it out of its holder and shake it around for a few minutes. Then water would pour out, and it would stop. I called ITT Rule and they agreed to send me a new one - didn't even ask me to sent in the old one for analysis.

I installed it, then after another few months it went the same way. Repeat, repeat, and I'm now on my 4th (or perhaps even 5th - I'm losing count). This last one started to malfunction same as the rest, but about 6 weeks ago, it seemed to correct itself, and hasn't malfunctioned since.

I have been suspecting that the problem may be that the outlet hose goes up from the pump, then down a little, then back up to the thru-hull. But haven't experimented yet.

I have asked many people if they have had the same problem, but haven't had a positive response. Here is the thread on this site.
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=144541

It was never 100% clear to me that it worked by switching on periodically to test for back pressure, or simply by a float switch.

Over the years I've found another way to get it off (rather than taking it out and shaking it). If I simply pour a cupfull of fresh water over it, that usually makes it stop (may take two or more cupfulls).

Overall: - BAD NEWS. If Rule didn't keep sending me new ones, I'd have changed to a different brand (and it's probably penny-pinching of me not to change anyway)
 
B

Benny17441

.
May 24, 2004
7,173
CC 30 South Florida
Druid, I have long recommended these automatic pumps for use in those shallow bilges where the operation of a float switch is impractical. You have a very valid concern about the possibility of having the pump recycle often because of backflow. I do not think it should be a problem as when the pump turns itself OFF when it starts sucking air it will not turn itself back ON for another two minutes. Two minutes is time enough for backflow to return and settle in the bilge. I do not know how small the bilge is or how long the discharge hose is but I would check to see if the pump stays on for consecutive cycles and for how long it runs to discharge the backflow. With that information in hand you may calculate the anticipated power consumption. I don't have the specs at hand for the pump but I recall the daily power consumption under normal operation was negligible so I would consider that were the pump to run an additional 15 seconds to expell the volume of backflow water at every 2 minute intervals that the power consumption would not be noticeably affected. Just install it and try it out before considering a check valve. As far as longevity they last around 5 years with very little maintenance.
 
Delezynski

Delezynski

.
Jan 22, 2008
551
NorSea 27 Az., Doing the To-Do list
Druid,

I had the exact same problem a long time ago. Even with a check valve, the water leaks back into the bilge. Just a bit slower!

You might want to take a look at a Youtube video I recently posted on how I cured the problem. It just under 5 min and at;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENhFlJ45GC8&feature=share&list=UUyGH1-xOhCotpV_zhSzQq7g

Please note; the video is in 3D, but you can turn that off by going to the bottom and clicking on the red "3D", then selecting off.

Greg
 
sailaway78

sailaway78

.
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
The best solution for shallow bilge

In a shallow bilge, where you don't really have enough room for a real float type float switch, use on of the electronic ones. I use nothing else, and have never had one of these fail. Don't like the cycling pumps because of battery drain. The electronics you can lay flat, and adjust the height any where you should like. They are GOOD
 
zeehag

zeehag

.
Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
my fully automatic bilge pump i used a lot failed after 10 years of use. not shabby.
my float switch for the forward bilge pump failed after 3 yrs of use. eeps.
i like the fully automatic longevity better, thankyou. i have one in my ericson, also.
 
Chris Patterson

Chris Patterson

.
Oct 17, 2011
2,809
Ericson 29 Southport..
I like the Water Witch, and I also use a check valve as well. I'm not sure of why I did it this way, as it is kind of redundant. I have a very high loop in the discharge, and also use smooth walled Tygon tubing for this as well. And double pumps.
There are some things on a boat that I might scrimp on, but the bilge pumps are not one of them by far. I also carry a spare pump, and a Beckson Thirsty Mate as well.
Just paranoid I guess.
 
druid

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Thanks for all the info, folks!

It looks like there's more of a problem with longevity than backwash. And I can see that: if the pump relies on lack of resistance to stop, after a few months of goop, corrosion, crap, etc. there would be more resistance - eventually enough that it doesn't stop. But I think a clean bilge would help that (mine is pretty much pure rainwater and condensation - no salt, no oil or diesel)

I'll give it a try - my backup plan is to use the float switch that's now on my "portable" pump (I attach a hose and some wire to a bilge pump - whenever I need to pump water out (say the dinghy, or someone else's dinghy) I just throw the pump in, attach it to 12V and voila!).

As for spares, I have an electric (the portable), 2 manual and several buckets. I think I'm ok. (In fact when I got the boat it had NO electric bilge pumps)

druid
"Wind Drift" Ontario 32
 
JoeWhite

JoeWhite

.
Mar 6, 2008
1,341
Catalina 1999 C36 MKII #1787 Coyote Point Marina, CA.
I have an other idea about installing a bilge pump. Why is not possible to use an impeller driven pump similar to the raw water pump with a 12VDC electric motor and place the pump near the outlet of the water hose where the water exits the boat. The pump will lift all the water out of the bilge and no water will return to the bilge. The bilge will have a float switch that will turn on the pump. It can be made so that the pump will run an other 10 seconds after the switch turns off. The end of the hose can be placed about 1/4" from the surface of the bilge so that there will only be 1/4" water left after the pump turns off. The impeller can easily be replace once every 2 years. Has anyone tried this set-up?
 
druid

druid

.
Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
JoeWhite said:
I have an other idea about installing a bilge pump. Why is not possible to use an impeller driven pump similar to the raw water pump with a 12VDC electric motor and place the pump near the outlet of the water hose where the water exits the boat.
Click to expand
You know, that's not a bad idea! A couple of issues I see: you'd need a pump that could "suck air" enough to get the water up to it at the start, and well, it seems to go contrary to my KISS philosophy: more complex = less reliable!

But I might try it if I have nothing better to do...

druid
 
Stu Jackson

Stu Jackson

.
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Impeller pumps are not good at running dry nor do they "pull" a head of water. To do that, you need a diaphragm pump. WM has a good description of different pump types in their Advisors, available on line.
 
sailormanbigd

sailormanbigd

.
Jul 24, 2006
628
Legnos, Starwind, Regal Mystic 30 cutter, 22 trailer sailor, bow rider NEW PORT RICHEY, FL
auto matic battery drain

I had one of the built in automatic bilge pumps on a stinkboat I had. It would cycle every 2-3 minutes and shut off. The thing would drain my batteries in a couple of days if not attached to a 110 charger. I would never install one again. Think about it...why would you want something to run to check for water? Just uses up 12V juice for nothing. I was useing the rule float switch and would have to replace it every six-12 months due to failure. I paid alittle more the last time and bought the "no moveable parts" float switch and never looked back. It has two metal contacts that when both contact water it turns the pump on.
 
zeehag

zeehag

.
Mar 26, 2009
3,198
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
fully automatic bilge pumps cycle every 3 mins. they turn selves off if there is no water in bilges. they last long--mine were over 10 yrs. and, as i stated, my lever action water activated flapper switches only lasted 2-3 yrs each. my fully auto pumps lasted over 10 yrs.
smooth sailing.

btw--the ones i use are rule brand.
 
Maine Sail

Maine Sail

.
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
JoeWhite said:
I have an other idea about installing a bilge pump. Why is not possible to use an impeller driven pump similar to the raw water pump with a 12VDC electric motor and place the pump near the outlet of the water hose where the water exits the boat. The pump will lift all the water out of the bilge and no water will return to the bilge. The bilge will have a float switch that will turn on the pump. It can be made so that the pump will run an other 10 seconds after the switch turns off. The end of the hose can be placed about 1/4" from the surface of the bilge so that there will only be 1/4" water left after the pump turns off. The impeller can easily be replace once every 2 years. Has anyone tried this set-up?
Click to expand
Diaphragm pumps are specifically designed for this.





A rotary vane pump will eventually kill the impeller if sucking air with each start. The nice thing about diaphragm pumps is that they are not stalled by check valves like a cheap centrifugal pump can be... The only draw back to these pumps is they need careful winterization...
 
onecoolair

onecoolair

.
Jun 25, 2012
942
hunter 356 Kemah,the Republic of Texas
Delezynski said:
Druid,

I had the exact same problem a long time ago. Even with a check valve, the water leaks back into the bilge. Just a bit slower!

You might want to take a look at a Youtube video I recently posted on how I cured the problem. It just under 5 min and at;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENhFlJ45GC8&feature=share&list=UUyGH1-xOhCotpV_zhSzQq7g

Please note; the video is in 3D, but you can turn that off by going to the bottom and clicking on the red "3D", then selecting off.

Greg
Click to expand
Very good idea! Hope you don't mind if I steel it.... Haha.... Could not get the 3d to turn off while using my I pod ... So I guess I will have to talk to Capt. Jane Way for permission to use the hollow deck??
 
Delezynski

Delezynski

.
Jan 22, 2008
551
NorSea 27 Az., Doing the To-Do list
I posted it so others could copy & fix the problem!

Sorry about that 3D problem on the iPod, Not sure why it does not turn off!!!?????

Picard will get the answer to you faster.... ;)

Greg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top Bottom