Back in Feb of this year my 1978 33ft Hunter was sunk during a Bottom Cleaning. Contractor knocked in the knot meter transducer. The contractor and I are in the lawsuit process (he is sueing me for 2500, the cost of raising the boat stating faulty equipment. I'm counter-sueing for the loss of my boat). The cross-road. My heart is broken over this crap, and I've even been out looking at older 21ft fishing boats to get me on the water (stinkpot. In specific a Robalo). I have a lawsuit going on...and the boat is my losses so I can't sell it. It's freaking expensive in Saint Petersburg to wet-slip a 33ft boat. Can't really fix it cause I'm concerned insurance will just want to repay my repairs vs. total loss. The other component is we are not sure if the contractor had insurance at the time (he has been very illusive) and I *just (within 30days) purchased the boat and hadn't insured it yet. So here I sit, 33ft'r in a slip and wondering what to do. The engine DID start the same day and I motored across the bay to another marina. At that time the electronics we're still wet and conducting. Now she won't start, but from what I'm hearing (non-professional opinions) it because of all the electronics around the engine...not the Yanmar itself. It started and ran, so the toughts are that internally it is fine. I don't know if it's 'worth' a rebuild, what that would cost, or if it would be better to pay to swap in another engine. Such a pickle!
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Inch by inch, row by row
You DO have a major issue on your hands, but why not try it one step at a time? If the boat floats now, and you had the engine running, why not concentrate on the engine repair. Get it running. If it can't work, then you'll know something more than you do now, for sure. I know it sounds difficult at this time, but start making a list. There are also many books around that discuss how to recondition parts that have been submerged. If the boat isn't going anywhere, it's a good time to start reading. FWIW, you sound like you like your boat, and that model is a very good boat. Good luck.
You DO have a major issue on your hands, but why not try it one step at a time? If the boat floats now, and you had the engine running, why not concentrate on the engine repair. Get it running. If it can't work, then you'll know something more than you do now, for sure. I know it sounds difficult at this time, but start making a list. There are also many books around that discuss how to recondition parts that have been submerged. If the boat isn't going anywhere, it's a good time to start reading. FWIW, you sound like you like your boat, and that model is a very good boat. Good luck.
Of course she'll start
right away, but give time for the salt inside the engine to corrode everything and you got yourself an expensive anchor. I taking it that you didn't pickle (I forgot what your supposed to use to do this but the idea is to get the salt out/off the engine and all parts) the engine after you got the boat back up, right? If I were you, I'd put the boat on the hard. No sense in paying for a wet slip on a boat that's not going anywhere. Then I'd take lots of pictures. They I would ask myself a few questions: 1) Did I love this boat? 2) Is it worth a year of work? 3) Do I plan on sailing her for the rest of my life? If yes to all three of these questions, then I'd take everything apart and start fixing her up and buy a new engine (assuming you didn't pickle it and it was salt water). If no to any, sell her. If you rebuild her, document everything including part numbers, prices, time it took you to replace it for every single thing. When you are done, you will have a solid documented dollar amount that you can use in courts. Courts love that stuff. It would actually be better off for you to do something with the boat now. If you sell it, then you have a dollar amount it cost you (purchased price - sold price) and that you can use in courts. Courts don't like it when you just make up numbers because your too lazy to do what it takes to have real numbers. Another option you may have, if you had the boat surveyed, is to include the surveyor in the suit so that both responsible parties pay half. If you didn't have it surveyed, then lesson learned I guess. Good luck and best wishes for you to get back on the water.
right away, but give time for the salt inside the engine to corrode everything and you got yourself an expensive anchor. I taking it that you didn't pickle (I forgot what your supposed to use to do this but the idea is to get the salt out/off the engine and all parts) the engine after you got the boat back up, right? If I were you, I'd put the boat on the hard. No sense in paying for a wet slip on a boat that's not going anywhere. Then I'd take lots of pictures. They I would ask myself a few questions: 1) Did I love this boat? 2) Is it worth a year of work? 3) Do I plan on sailing her for the rest of my life? If yes to all three of these questions, then I'd take everything apart and start fixing her up and buy a new engine (assuming you didn't pickle it and it was salt water). If no to any, sell her. If you rebuild her, document everything including part numbers, prices, time it took you to replace it for every single thing. When you are done, you will have a solid documented dollar amount that you can use in courts. Courts love that stuff. It would actually be better off for you to do something with the boat now. If you sell it, then you have a dollar amount it cost you (purchased price - sold price) and that you can use in courts. Courts don't like it when you just make up numbers because your too lazy to do what it takes to have real numbers. Another option you may have, if you had the boat surveyed, is to include the surveyor in the suit so that both responsible parties pay half. If you didn't have it surveyed, then lesson learned I guess. Good luck and best wishes for you to get back on the water.
BTW
If you didn't have it surveyed, then it's a very good possibility you will lose in court. Anything like a thru-hull or transducer is supposed to be strong and very well attached to the hull. In no way, shape or form should a diver be able to bust it loose. After all, a diver doesn't have a lot of power under water. In most cases, he's floating in water so any hard push on the hull pushes him away from the hull. So, I'd have to agree with the contractor that the boat had a bad transducer. I mean, if a diver is going to be able to knock it in, then what do you think would happen if you hit a large fish while sailing? This also brings me back to my suggestion that all boats have enough pump power to handle a busted tranducer (they are usually bigger then a thru-hull). For my boat that means a Rule 8000 with a 3" hose. If you had that and an alarm and shore power, somebody would have called you and told you that your boat's alarm is going off and your bulge pump is working overtime and you wouldn't be in this mess. $380 is cheap insurance, don't you think?
If you didn't have it surveyed, then it's a very good possibility you will lose in court. Anything like a thru-hull or transducer is supposed to be strong and very well attached to the hull. In no way, shape or form should a diver be able to bust it loose. After all, a diver doesn't have a lot of power under water. In most cases, he's floating in water so any hard push on the hull pushes him away from the hull. So, I'd have to agree with the contractor that the boat had a bad transducer. I mean, if a diver is going to be able to knock it in, then what do you think would happen if you hit a large fish while sailing? This also brings me back to my suggestion that all boats have enough pump power to handle a busted tranducer (they are usually bigger then a thru-hull). For my boat that means a Rule 8000 with a 3" hose. If you had that and an alarm and shore power, somebody would have called you and told you that your boat's alarm is going off and your bulge pump is working overtime and you wouldn't be in this mess. $380 is cheap insurance, don't you think?
If the contractor............
If the contractor had insurance, his insurance company would have contacted you by now, if for no ther reason than to just look at the boat. Also, his Ins. Co. would be the party sueing you and not him as an individual. What to do about it? A Hunter 33 of that age,in good condition should be worth about 14K. Just start by calling a mechanic and get an estimate on the motor, then add in the slip fee's for the time you cant use the boat, dont forget to add in yard fees and any items you buy plus any help you may have to hire. Then add in any costs to get the boat to be worth 14K ( usually includes a certain amount of upgrades. If all the costs added up are greater than the 14K, its not worth it. BTW, your court battle can go either way. Anyone that has had any amount of time spent in court will tell you nothing is ever 'in the bag' It largely depends on the mood the judge is in that day. I remember your first post on this topic. I wish you luck. Tony B
If the contractor had insurance, his insurance company would have contacted you by now, if for no ther reason than to just look at the boat. Also, his Ins. Co. would be the party sueing you and not him as an individual. What to do about it? A Hunter 33 of that age,in good condition should be worth about 14K. Just start by calling a mechanic and get an estimate on the motor, then add in the slip fee's for the time you cant use the boat, dont forget to add in yard fees and any items you buy plus any help you may have to hire. Then add in any costs to get the boat to be worth 14K ( usually includes a certain amount of upgrades. If all the costs added up are greater than the 14K, its not worth it. BTW, your court battle can go either way. Anyone that has had any amount of time spent in court will tell you nothing is ever 'in the bag' It largely depends on the mood the judge is in that day. I remember your first post on this topic. I wish you luck. Tony B
How about...
You might consider getting an expert to analyze what is left of the transducer, if you can find it. I would think that an expert's testimony that it was sound and sturdy at the time of the break might go a long way in convincing the judge (or insurance people) that it was the other guy's fault.
You might consider getting an expert to analyze what is left of the transducer, if you can find it. I would think that an expert's testimony that it was sound and sturdy at the time of the break might go a long way in convincing the judge (or insurance people) that it was the other guy's fault.
nteresting
OK. First. Have a friend nearby with a boat in the water call the same guy and ask about a bottom cleaning. Have him ask HOW they do it. My guess? They used scrapers to clean off the barnicles or crud and sliced off the transducer. Or they at least cracked it in two from hitting it with a tool of some sort. Having a friend call and getting that info will help in the lawsuit. Make sure your friend can testify or file an affidavit as to his conversation, if it applies. Next: the boat is in the water, was sunk, raised, and now floats. Did you get to see the bottom after she was raised? Did you get to see the transducer? If they used a scraper, the marks would show. If they didn't have insurance and you didn't have insurance, then heck, have some fun. Redesign the boat the way you wanted all along. Maybe add a wet bar below! Learn how to rewire a boat and go for it, replacing whatever is crusty with contaminants. It's a great time to learn. Too bad I am not there or I'd surely give you a hand. It sounds like fun (nope, not a drink in three days, don't smoke dope either) This just presents what is. Go from there with with either being pissed off, or accept it and move on.
OK. First. Have a friend nearby with a boat in the water call the same guy and ask about a bottom cleaning. Have him ask HOW they do it. My guess? They used scrapers to clean off the barnicles or crud and sliced off the transducer. Or they at least cracked it in two from hitting it with a tool of some sort. Having a friend call and getting that info will help in the lawsuit. Make sure your friend can testify or file an affidavit as to his conversation, if it applies. Next: the boat is in the water, was sunk, raised, and now floats. Did you get to see the bottom after she was raised? Did you get to see the transducer? If they used a scraper, the marks would show. If they didn't have insurance and you didn't have insurance, then heck, have some fun. Redesign the boat the way you wanted all along. Maybe add a wet bar below! Learn how to rewire a boat and go for it, replacing whatever is crusty with contaminants. It's a great time to learn. Too bad I am not there or I'd surely give you a hand. It sounds like fun (nope, not a drink in three days, don't smoke dope either) This just presents what is. Go from there with with either being pissed off, or accept it and move on.
OP - My thoughts
I really didn't mean for this to get into a law-suit issue post....as it was discussed at great lengths prior. There are arguments on both sides... Faulty equipment vs. Poor workmanship. Sad thing is this_same contractor sank a boat for the same_reason within a short time of sinking mine. Since the original event...it has been frustrating. Now I just wonder....outboard on the transom?, fix the current engine? Swap a rebuilt engine in there? Or put it on the hard (good advice franklin) and get another boat while dealing with the losses on the hunter.
I really didn't mean for this to get into a law-suit issue post....as it was discussed at great lengths prior. There are arguments on both sides... Faulty equipment vs. Poor workmanship. Sad thing is this_same contractor sank a boat for the same_reason within a short time of sinking mine. Since the original event...it has been frustrating. Now I just wonder....outboard on the transom?, fix the current engine? Swap a rebuilt engine in there? Or put it on the hard (good advice franklin) and get another boat while dealing with the losses on the hunter.
Bilge pump capacity
I don't think your going to find a bilge pump that will ever keep up with a clean 2" hole that far below waterline.
I don't think your going to find a bilge pump that will ever keep up with a clean 2" hole that far below waterline.
Estimation of GPM thru a 2" hole
Using the formula for the gallons per minute thru a fire nozzle I came up with this estimation. The formula is: 29.7 x nozzle diameter squared x square root of the nozzle pressure. Assuming that the thru hull was 4 ft. below the water line, I estimated that the pressure was 1.6 psi, so.. 29.7 x 4 x 1.26 = 149 gallons per minute. I hope there's an engineer out there who may be able to add to this, because I didn't take the weight of the boat into consideration, and the pressure at 4 ft. depth could be much higher, which means more gallons per minute into the boat through the hole.
Using the formula for the gallons per minute thru a fire nozzle I came up with this estimation. The formula is: 29.7 x nozzle diameter squared x square root of the nozzle pressure. Assuming that the thru hull was 4 ft. below the water line, I estimated that the pressure was 1.6 psi, so.. 29.7 x 4 x 1.26 = 149 gallons per minute. I hope there's an engineer out there who may be able to add to this, because I didn't take the weight of the boat into consideration, and the pressure at 4 ft. depth could be much higher, which means more gallons per minute into the boat through the hole.
what I'd do
Personally, My opinion is to get the boat out of the water and start working on it, put money aside to pay for the amount the guy is in court for, just in case the judgement goes wrong, not saying it will, but bring an umbrella. You have money in it, if the damage was great enough to warrent a complete teardown/rebuild, then make it what you want. Change all the things that you didn't like about the boat. If the damage wasn't that great, then fix what was hurt and get to sailing. I assume that the boat was purchased because you liked the boat, if you bought the boat for an investment, then I think it would be safe to say it will be low yeild. My boat was trashed when I bought it, so I walked in expecting to put a lot of time and money into it, but, since I like the boat, I would be happy fixing things that most would consider far too much trouble/or too expensive. Ken.
Personally, My opinion is to get the boat out of the water and start working on it, put money aside to pay for the amount the guy is in court for, just in case the judgement goes wrong, not saying it will, but bring an umbrella. You have money in it, if the damage was great enough to warrent a complete teardown/rebuild, then make it what you want. Change all the things that you didn't like about the boat. If the damage wasn't that great, then fix what was hurt and get to sailing. I assume that the boat was purchased because you liked the boat, if you bought the boat for an investment, then I think it would be safe to say it will be low yeild. My boat was trashed when I bought it, so I walked in expecting to put a lot of time and money into it, but, since I like the boat, I would be happy fixing things that most would consider far too much trouble/or too expensive. Ken.
Why include the surveyor
in the lawsuit? I may not fully understand the function of a surveyor but how could he (the surveyor) be culpable other than to be a "deep pocket"?
in the lawsuit? I may not fully understand the function of a surveyor but how could he (the surveyor) be culpable other than to be a "deep pocket"?
ah....your wronge
First off...most thru hulls on my boat are only like a foot, no more then two below the waterline. I've taken the transducer out and held open the protective one way valve and I got what seemed to be a 3/4 gallons a second but it could be a little more. I'm planning on 1.5 gallons a second and yes, a rule 8000 and a rule 2000 and a rule 1500 would keep up with that. I think you forget that a rule 8000 uses a 3" hose.
First off...most thru hulls on my boat are only like a foot, no more then two below the waterline. I've taken the transducer out and held open the protective one way valve and I got what seemed to be a 3/4 gallons a second but it could be a little more. I'm planning on 1.5 gallons a second and yes, a rule 8000 and a rule 2000 and a rule 1500 would keep up with that. I think you forget that a rule 8000 uses a 3" hose.
Mike
My draft is only 5' so how is it that you seem to think I'm going to have thru hulls 4' under water? Do you think Hunter actually puts thru hulls at the bottom of the keel? Water pressure is .433 psi for each foot. So lets say that you take 29.7 * 4 * .5 (which is still too much) = 59.4 gallons per minute. So that's 1 gallon per second. A rule 8000 alone is suppose to pump about 80 gallons per minute with the conditions I will put it into (133 in a perfect environment). Now add another 20 gallons for the rule 2000 and 15 gallons for the rule 1500 and you got yourself a good bilge system which isn't hard to do and doesn't cost an arm and a leg when you consider the consequences. So many na sayers on this list.
My draft is only 5' so how is it that you seem to think I'm going to have thru hulls 4' under water? Do you think Hunter actually puts thru hulls at the bottom of the keel? Water pressure is .433 psi for each foot. So lets say that you take 29.7 * 4 * .5 (which is still too much) = 59.4 gallons per minute. So that's 1 gallon per second. A rule 8000 alone is suppose to pump about 80 gallons per minute with the conditions I will put it into (133 in a perfect environment). Now add another 20 gallons for the rule 2000 and 15 gallons for the rule 1500 and you got yourself a good bilge system which isn't hard to do and doesn't cost an arm and a leg when you consider the consequences. So many na sayers on this list.
Bilge pump capacity
I will agree that the combination of all 3 rule pumps running at the same time that initially the discharge will keep up with a clean 2" hole. I will add that the current required to keep them running, if one of the pumps does cycle it will not be offline for very long, is the next issue. Most of us are not set up with the battery bank required to allow much time for response to the emergency. Most boats in the midsize range would not have battery or charger capacity to keep up. In reguard to who is at fault for the damaged sensor/ thru-hull it is very important that the hardware is inspected. The flange nut that holds the tranducer in place could be faulty when new, the retainer could have split from overtightening, the travelift straps could have pushed the sensor thru the thru-hull, any of these and many other reasons could have led to the failure.
I will agree that the combination of all 3 rule pumps running at the same time that initially the discharge will keep up with a clean 2" hole. I will add that the current required to keep them running, if one of the pumps does cycle it will not be offline for very long, is the next issue. Most of us are not set up with the battery bank required to allow much time for response to the emergency. Most boats in the midsize range would not have battery or charger capacity to keep up. In reguard to who is at fault for the damaged sensor/ thru-hull it is very important that the hardware is inspected. The flange nut that holds the tranducer in place could be faulty when new, the retainer could have split from overtightening, the travelift straps could have pushed the sensor thru the thru-hull, any of these and many other reasons could have led to the failure.
2 hole = 110 gallons per minute = 6,600per hour
The Truth About Unsinkable Boats A professional mariner tells how you might avoid sinking 8/1998 by Staff Blue Water Sailing Bilge pumps are rated on their ability to pump water horizontally, not vertically. For example, a pump rated at 50 gallons per minute (gpm) indicates a horizontal movement of 50 gallons. Any vertical lift reduces a pump's capacity dramatically. Note that many pumps rate their capacity in gallons per hour, not minute. Remember that a two-inch opening two feet below the waterline will let in 110 gallons per minute, which equals 6,600 gallons an hour! A high-capacity 50-gallon-per-minute pump is going to move 3,000 gallons per hour A quick review of water pressure and flooding are in order. Flooding rates for various size holes at selected depths are calculated using this formula: Q = 20 x d x square-root of h Q = flooding rate in gpm d = diameter of hole in inches h = depth of hole underwater in feet Water exerts about a half-pound of pressure per square-inch for each foot of depth. At a depth of three feet - the distance, for example, over an engine intake - water pressure equals 1.5 pounds per square inch (1.5 psi). What does this tell us? It indicates that a hole just 1" in diameter at this depth will pass 34 gallons of water in a single minute. Over an hour, that amounts to 2,040 gallons.
The Truth About Unsinkable Boats A professional mariner tells how you might avoid sinking 8/1998 by Staff Blue Water Sailing Bilge pumps are rated on their ability to pump water horizontally, not vertically. For example, a pump rated at 50 gallons per minute (gpm) indicates a horizontal movement of 50 gallons. Any vertical lift reduces a pump's capacity dramatically. Note that many pumps rate their capacity in gallons per hour, not minute. Remember that a two-inch opening two feet below the waterline will let in 110 gallons per minute, which equals 6,600 gallons an hour! A high-capacity 50-gallon-per-minute pump is going to move 3,000 gallons per hour A quick review of water pressure and flooding are in order. Flooding rates for various size holes at selected depths are calculated using this formula: Q = 20 x d x square-root of h Q = flooding rate in gpm d = diameter of hole in inches h = depth of hole underwater in feet Water exerts about a half-pound of pressure per square-inch for each foot of depth. At a depth of three feet - the distance, for example, over an engine intake - water pressure equals 1.5 pounds per square inch (1.5 psi). What does this tell us? It indicates that a hole just 1" in diameter at this depth will pass 34 gallons of water in a single minute. Over an hour, that amounts to 2,040 gallons.
NO...a 2" hole = 3,402 gallons per hour
20 x 2" x sqrt of 2' = 56.7 gpm That's less than a gallon per second. I don't know about you but nothing on my hull is 3' below the water line and most thru hulls are only 1' below the waterline at best. If you have thru hulls at 3' below the water line, then either you must have a very short keel, a thru hull at the bottom of your keel, or a very deep hull with a very large draft. Rule rates there pumps with different ratings. The different ratings are to help determine the actual capasity of the pump with the environment (size of hose, length of hose, elevation to pump...etc). Try reading the ratings before you comment on how they don't apply. And...water pressure is .433 per foot. and if you don't want to believe the math, then just go open up your thru hull and see for yourself like I did. Real life example is the real proof.
20 x 2" x sqrt of 2' = 56.7 gpm That's less than a gallon per second. I don't know about you but nothing on my hull is 3' below the water line and most thru hulls are only 1' below the waterline at best. If you have thru hulls at 3' below the water line, then either you must have a very short keel, a thru hull at the bottom of your keel, or a very deep hull with a very large draft. Rule rates there pumps with different ratings. The different ratings are to help determine the actual capasity of the pump with the environment (size of hose, length of hose, elevation to pump...etc). Try reading the ratings before you comment on how they don't apply. And...water pressure is .433 per foot. and if you don't want to believe the math, then just go open up your thru hull and see for yourself like I did. Real life example is the real proof.
Tom H
Your right on the amps. I didn't calculate the amps...but am close enough. My charger puts out 40amps and all three builge pumps require about 50 amps to run. Then subtract the frig of say 5 amps and I'm short of 15 amps to run all three pumps and 5 short to run the refrig and rule 8000 at the same time. However, they will run at a lower amp, just not at full power, so I'm still going with it. Maybe I will take back the Rule 2000 (was going to put it in this weekend). If at dock, the alarm will go off and I'm sure somebody will give me a call, especially if I Tim Allan the alarm
If at sea, I can start the engine and that will give me all the juice I need (60 amps). Ok...so I'll have to bump up the alternator to 110 amps so I can turn on all the lights because if something's going to happen, It's going to happen at night
Your right on the amps. I didn't calculate the amps...but am close enough. My charger puts out 40amps and all three builge pumps require about 50 amps to run. Then subtract the frig of say 5 amps and I'm short of 15 amps to run all three pumps and 5 short to run the refrig and rule 8000 at the same time. However, they will run at a lower amp, just not at full power, so I'm still going with it. Maybe I will take back the Rule 2000 (was going to put it in this weekend). If at dock, the alarm will go off and I'm sure somebody will give me a call, especially if I Tim Allan the alarm
If at sea, I can start the engine and that will give me all the juice I need (60 amps). Ok...so I'll have to bump up the alternator to 110 amps so I can turn on all the lights because if something's going to happen, It's going to happen at night 
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