Asymmetrical spinnaker on 192/222?

[Brian S]

Are any of you guys flying an asym on your 192 or 222?

My boat (192) had a spinnaker, but I didn't feel like buying it from the PO. (Was kinda hoping he'd throw it in...) I'm assuming it was symmetrical, because that was the original spec for the 192.

In the meantime, a friend with a Com Pac 19 had an asymmetrical spinnaker that she didn't want ("I'll never use that!") I figure the sizing is similar, except the CP19 is a masthead rig. It fit when I did a quick test hoist on haul-out day, in any case...

My boat is currently rigged with a spinnaker halyard that runs to the top of the mast. My understanding is that one does not want a spin halyard too far away from the shroud hounds, because a spin, especially an asym, puts a lot of side loading on the mast. So I'm getting a bit anxious about it, and it's off season, so I have plenty of time to think and dream... Now, I haven't actually measured the mast yet ('cos she's all tarped up for the winter) but based on the spec for the luff of the main, and the leech of the jib, I figure this is a 7/8ths fractional rig. Seems to me there isn't a whole lot of unsupported mast section between the shroud hounds and the mast head...

So my biggest question for the experienced lot of you: Do you think it's ok to fly an asym from a halyard set at the top of the mast? Or should I consider mounting the block 6" or so above the forestay, and plan to have the chute cut down?

'Cos it's just so important to worry about this kind of thing with 4 months to go until I can splash again

Thanks,
Brian

 

[justsomeguy]

Are any of you guys flying an asym on your 192 or 222?

My boat (192) had a spinnaker, but I didn't feel like buying it from the PO. (Was kinda hoping he'd throw it in...) I'm assuming it was symmetrical, because that was the original spec for the 192.

In the meantime, a friend with a Com Pac 19 had an asymmetrical spinnaker that she didn't want ("I'll never use that!") I figure the sizing is similar, except the CP19 is a masthead rig. It fit when I did a quick test hoist on haul-out day, in any case...

My boat is currently rigged with a spinnaker halyard that runs to the top of the mast. My understanding is that one does not want a spin halyard too far away from the shroud hounds, because a spin, especially an asym, puts a lot of side loading on the mast. So I'm getting a bit anxious about it, and it's off season, so I have plenty of time to think and dream... Now, I haven't actually measured the mast yet ('cos she's all tarped up for the winter) but based on the spec for the luff of the main, and the leech of the jib, I figure this is a 7/8ths fractional rig. Seems to me there isn't a whole lot of unsupported mast section between the shroud hounds and the mast head...

So my biggest question for the experienced lot of you: Do you think it's ok to fly an asym from a halyard set at the top of the mast? Or should I consider mounting the block 6" or so above the forestay, and plan to have the chute cut down?

'Cos it's just so important to worry about this kind of thing with 4 months to go until I can splash again

Thanks,
Brian

Your understandings WRT a fractional rig's side-loading limitations are correct. I'll bet that you could mount a new hound slightly above your forestay, and still not have to cut down the sail.
With a breeze sufficient to fill the asym, and an adjustable tackline, it'll ride up.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Actually some fractional boats have both spinnaker halyards just above the forestay and also another from the masthead (the design allows this - I own one of those boats that I race), but the mast is also built sturdier to support this extra load. My guess is on light to medium winded days you might be able to get away with it (flying the sail from the masthead), but I wouldn't try it on heavy winded days, or to be safe, just install a spinnaker halyard from a spot just above your existing forestay and be safe as the first commenter suggested.

 

[Brian S]

So I wound up writing to Dwyer mast. They said they didn't supply masts for the 192 with spinnaker gear, and that, if they had, it would not have been at the masthead. And that the Com Pac 19 spin should have about 23 sq feet more sail area than a 192.

So, basically, I'm going to plan to move that halyard down closer to the hounds, and potentially having the spin cut down a bit. 'Cos I just KNOW I'm not going to be happy flying it in just light winds...

Brian

 

[RichBone]

Sounds like a plan, man.

 

[justsomeguy]

Sounds like a plan, man.

I like that signature of yours, RBone!

 

[justsomeguy]

snip- 'Cos I just KNOW I'm not going to be happy flying it in just light winds...

Brian

Those sails are fun and can be very challenging to fly. I believe there's some truth to the old adage "sailing just above a catastrophe"!

 

[Jackdaw]

Actually some fractional boats have both spinnaker halyards just above the forestay and also another from the masthead (the design allows this - I own one of those boats that I race), but the mast is also built sturdier to support this extra load. My guess is on light to medium winded days you might be able to get away with it (flying the sail from the masthead), but I wouldn't try it on heavy winded days, or to be safe, just install a spinnaker halyard from a spot just above your existing forestay and be safe as the first commenter suggested.

Bill called it; many fractional boats are designed to fly masthead spins. This is accounted for in the rig design. Should be. ;^)

If you want to be safer and run it fractional, you could just mount a halyard restrainer just above the forestay box on the front face of the mast, and run the halyard down from the existing mast-top exit to the restrainer, and fly the spi from there. This is exactly how it works on our 36.7. No new hole to cut in your mast. And the only new part is like 15 bucks.

 

[Brian S]

Halyard doohickey

Jackday, thanks for the suggestion. As luck would have it, I just learned about these halyard restrainers from a guy rigging a spin on his Precision 23 with internal halyards. He's going to add a sheave at his masthead, then run down to a surface mount sheave that hinges from side to side. Something like a Ronstan RF30174 pivoting lead block http://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?ProdNo=RF30174 The halyard will exit the bottom of this sheave, to clip to the head of the chute.

In my case, all my halyards run external to the mast, rather than internally. The halyard runs up outside the mast, to a sheave attached with an eye strap to the mast. (Something like a 57mm sheave Harken, at that. Far bigger than it needs to be!)

So, all I'll have to do is drill and tap the mast to install my eye strap and sheave, or perhaps rivet with SS rivets. I'll probably use a Harken H340 Carbo Airblock, with a 29mm sheave which accepts a max of 8mm (5/16") line, figuring that I'll be using a 1/4" halyard anyway.

Any thoughts on my eyestrap attachment method? Preferences for drilling and tapping for a bolt, as opposed to 3/16" stainless steel rivets?

Thanks,
Brian

Bill called it; many fractional boats are designed to fly masthead spins. This is accounted for in the rig design. Should be. ;^)

If you want to be safer and run it fractional, you could just mount a halyard restrainer just above the forestay box on the front face of the mast, and run the halyard down from the existing mast-top exit to the restrainer, and fly the spi from there. This is exactly how it works on our 36.7. No new hole to cut in your mast. And the only new part is like 15 bucks.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Good ideas. However, you might want to consider Garhauer blocks. Why? 'Cuz I've had carbo blocks (not Harkens) completely disintegrate after a few years. These were right on deck for our cunningham, easy to access. It'd be a bummer to have the cheeks on the blocks fail after a few years up at the top of the mast. Garhauer blocks have ss cheeks. Just for your consideration.

 

[Brian S]

Stu, I hear you about the Carbo blocks. I have wondering how long that plastic will last in the sun. l looked up some Garhauers on Mauriprosailing.com, and they all look too big for my application - and too expensive! Whew!

Has anyone used Viadana blocks? They look just like Harken, from the pictures up on sail care.com's website. And half the price. I think I'm going to start using their stuff for my mainsheet cleat, and jib cleats, and probably this halyard block.

Also, any opinions if I should use bolts or rivets to attach the halyard block eye strap? Oh, heck, rivets ought to be good enough, and they are easy and I have them...

Brian

 

[Jackdaw]

Brian,

Wow, that part is total overkill for a 23 foot boat. Hell, for any boat. Our 36 uses a simple restrainer, as does our 26. Looks like this.

http://www.shopsoundboatworks.com/schareforbot.html?cmp=pricegrabber&kw=schareforbot

ANY type of spin halyard restrainer you should look at a backing plate inside the mast if possible. Use 36 pitch screws, and a correctly sized tap.

Jackday, thanks for the suggestion. As luck would have it, I just learned about these halyard restrainers from a guy rigging a spin on his Precision 23 with internal halyards. He's going to add a sheave at his masthead, then run down to a surface mount sheave that hinges from side to side. Something like a Ronstan RF30174 pivoting lead block http://www.ronstan.com/marine/product.asp?ProdNo=RF30174 The halyard will exit the bottom of this sheave, to clip to the head of the chute.

In my case, all my halyards run external to the mast, rather than internally. The halyard runs up outside the mast, to a sheave attached with an eye strap to the mast. (Something like a 57mm sheave Harken, at that. Far bigger than it needs to be!)

So, all I'll have to do is drill and tap the mast to install my eye strap and sheave, or perhaps rivet with SS rivets. I'll probably use a Harken H340 Carbo Airblock, with a 29mm sheave which accepts a max of 8mm (5/16") line, figuring that I'll be using a 1/4" halyard anyway.

Any thoughts on my eyestrap attachment method? Preferences for drilling and tapping for a bolt, as opposed to 3/16" stainless steel rivets?

Thanks,
Brian

 

[oliversdad]

Hi Brian,
Had to search down this thread as I just bought an asym chute.Now to figure how to rig.Just wondered where you would set your tack block.I talked to a friend and he suggested a bowsprit.I've done some research and I think I could rig one without considerable trouble or cost.Any thoughts?
Have you sailed yours yet?Any pics of your rigging and hardware would be helpful...Cheers,Barry

 

[Brian S]

Barry, I haven't launched the boat yet, so I don't have any rigging pics for you yet.

The PO had the tack line set to a single block on the stemhead fitting, running back to a cam cleat on the port cabintop side.

I would prefer to have the tack from the bow pulpit, but I'm not sure I want a block off center on the pulpit, because the forward nav light bracket is welded right at the mid point (as it should be.)

Also, I don't know how long the luff is compared to the mast length. The PO looks to have moved the halyard block from 6" or so above the forestay up to near the masthead. I don't feel all that comfortable with that location on a fractional rig boat, but it will generally be flown on light wind days at the lake. There must have been a reason to move it up. I'll see when I first launch it - perhaps the the tack lifts very high over the deck and I can move the block back down...

Sheets run back to blocks on the forward base of the rear handles, up to ratchet blocks on the stanchion bases at the rear of the cabintop. Nice touch, the ratchets...

Brian

 

[oliversdad]

Thanks Brian,I'm still trying to figure out how to rig my tack block as the bow tang,as it does have three holes,is not very big.I'm trying to add a furling drum as well and there just isn't enough room.I'll figure out a way.

I'm hoping to attach a halyard tang about 6" above the hound as this seems to be the consensus here but I'm waiting for the chute to arrive to see if that will work.Dimensions sound close but fingers are crossed.

I'm also going to use some hexaratchets for the spin sheet.They worked great when we used a spin on a hobie 21 years ago.

Hope you launch soon.Cheers,Barry

 

[Brian S]

Barry, I was talking to our club Commodore while I mooched off his boat hoist (DANG, that was a convenience! I want a boat hoist too!)

I was talking about where to put the tack line for the asym with him. I showed him how the original seemed to use the single block on the stemhead fitting, but that I'd rather have it launch from the bow pulpit, to get it forward of the forestay as much as possible. But that the nav light plate is welded right in the center of the pulpit rail, as it should be. I said "Maybe I can put a rail mount fairlead just off to the side?" He agreed that a couple of inches off center is no big deal. As far as luff length of the chute, that shouldn't matter either, as the PO had moved the halyard block to the masthead, rather than 6" about the hounds. So, lifting the tack line off the deck to the pulpit probably shouldn't matter from a luff length standpoint.

So, I will leave the single block on the stemhead fitting. The tack line will run along the deck up to this block, and then go up through the bullseye on the railing, probably oriented out the front of the rail, though inside would work as well. I will use an Allen HA455 shown here: http://www.apsltd.com/c-7522-stanchion-fairleads-and-blocks.aspx That's a reasonably low price for this type of fitting - Sailcare sells similar for $5.00 more... I want a bullseye on the rail, because then it will hold up the tack of the sail during a douse, rather than being a block that flaps around. Final consideration will be the run of the tack line up to the cam cleat mounted on the cabin side - there is a bullseye fairlead on the deck, but maybe I'll have to put a single block on the forward stanchion base? Meh, I can decide that once I have the mast up and have a no-wind day to hoist the chute...

I MIGHT have room to put an extendable sprit - I've heard that folks have mounted bow rollers for anchors on 222s. But I don't want that complication... In your thumbnail, you show a pic of a 19, and it doesn't appear to have a bow pulpit, so rigging a sprit might do well for you.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[oliversdad]

No,Brian I have no pulpit.If I did I likely would copy your plan.That's a nifty piece of hardware you found.I was thinking that you might also consider welding a mounting point above your bow light.Not sure that would work...Just a thought.
I'm most likely going to remove the deck plate and tang in order to clamp a laminated ash sprit to the deck.Nothing to long but I could get the room I need to install the furler drum next to the existing headstay.Probably a foot of protruding bowsprit.I'm still in the planning stage but it's looking a bit clearer now.

 

[Brian S]

Barry, I don't think I'd do that... One, I wouldn't remove the stemhead fitting. That takes all the strain of the rig. I've seen them pulled out of wood boats. If it's mechanically sound, leave it be. Two, I don't think I'd use a wood sprit without a bobstay. Although, you could probably rig a bobstay to your bow eye... What I'd do is mount an extendable bowsprit on the deck, with holes properly sealed with epoxy due to deck coring. Judy Blumhorst of Judybsails.com is mounting a Selden sprit on a custom designed West Wight Potter "Sport 19" http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/potter/index.cgi/read/107017 An aluminum extendable sprit would match the esthetic of the O'day 19 better than a laminated sprit with bobstay, in my opinion. I was looking on Selden's website for sprit info, and I didn't really find any. But you could give Judy a call, and she'd fill you in on details. Nice lady, I spoke with her at length about furling genoas once...

Brian

 

[oliversdad]

I hear you on the aesthetics of what I'm planning.I'll have to work up a design carefully.I have looked into those selden kits and they are both pricey and seemingly large for my little 19.
I'm planning to remove the stemhead fitting to anchor my bowsprit then mortice back in the stemplate to the sprit and re-through bolt as originally configured.Probably have to shorten forestay...Also,planning to bobstay to the bow eye.
I do appreciate your thoughts as it keeps me thinking...Barry

 

[Brian S]

Barry, no worries. Sometimes I post what I've seen or heard, with the hope that someone with more experience will chime in and teach me more

Brian