Anything Wrong With Lightly Used 30 Year Old Sail Cloth?

[rardiH36]

Does sail cloth loose it's oomph with extreme age even if not used much?

I am considering reducing in size a 30 year old full batten main sail which is about 15% too large in luff and foot for my boat. Made by North. Very heavy dacron ... it weighs an absolute ton in the sail bag compared to any other sail I've slung over my shoulder. My guess it was used only a few seasons before the owner decided to change sails. And has been stored ever since. Or the boat was hardly ever used. No tears/repairs and not much sign of wear of the cloth itself. Even the leech is strong without much loss of fabric stiffness. All the stitching is sound everywhere. In appearance, the fabric has only a few mostly removable stains and of course the usual yellowing with age. But still more white in appearance than yellow.

Before starting on the project, does anyone know if old but good condition sail cloth is likely to hold up for a few more seasons? I ask because Dacron after all would seem to be a type of plastic of sorts. My experience is that old plastics can become brittle and they fail.

The only items I've done so far is make measurements, ponder whether to go ahead or not, and milk out the shrunken bolt rope along its luff sleeve. (The sail gained 6" in luff length after. I wonder if the bolt rope actually shrinks or is it the sail fabric that stretches with use so needs more bolt rope length to compensate?)

I will lose the bottom-most full length batten in the shortening. So the sail will become a three instead of four batten sail. I could add a normal (short) leech batten somewhere between the existing full batten sleeves. Anybody care to suggest if this is necessary? Where would be best? In the lower portion of the sail, or the middle or at the top?

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[Gunni]

I have a 24 y.o. sail that I use on a sailing sea kayak, it was constructed of the best dacron and shows no sign of embrittlement or failure. That said, when it comes to the decision of new versus repair, I have a loft do an estimate to repair/recut and compare that to cost of new and the certainty of new fabric, stitching, webbing, etc. At some point the choice is obvious. Given the scope of your project, and uncertainty, I would think that simply having a new sail made would be the best value and have you sailing sooner. Add in the value of making this a personal sail cutting project and it may be a wash.

I got some great new sail price estimates at the Annapolis boat show this month. My conclusion was that once a main sail starts to need more than about $300 / year in wear/tear repair, it is time to consider new.

 

[Stu Jackson]

rardi, you shouldn't have any issues. It sounds like a great idea. I'd talk to a sailmaker about the battens. Luff ropes shrink, that sounds more like what you described. There have been numerous discussions about shrinking bolt ropes and how to fix them. Given the summer winds you sail in, that heavier mainsail should do you just fine. Good luck (wish I had that problem, my - only - mainsail is 26 year old, good for winter sailing in light winds, pretty much "only" ).

 

[dlandersson]

The minute it is made, degradation starts. Have it professionally inspected, then price a new(er) sail for comparison.

 

[Bill1565]

Does sail cloth loose it's oomph with extreme age even if not used much? I am considering reducing in size a 30 year old full batten main sail which is about 15% too large in luff and foot for my boat. Made by North. Very heavy dacron ... it weighs an absolute ton in the sail bag compared to any other sail I've slung over my shoulder. My guess it was used only a few seasons before the owner decided to change sails. And has been stored ever since. Or the boat was hardly ever used. No tears/repairs and not much sign of wear of the cloth itself. Even the leech is strong without much loss of fabric stiffness. All the stitching is sound everywhere. In appearance, the fabric has only a few mostly removable stains and of course the usual yellowing with age. But still more white in appearance than yellow. Before starting on the project, does anyone know if old but good condition sail cloth is likely to hold up for a few more seasons? I ask because Dacron after all would seem to be a type of plastic of sorts. My experience is that old plastics can become brittle and they fail. The only items I've done so far is make measurements, ponder whether to go ahead or not, and milk out the shrunken bolt rope along its luff sleeve. (The sail gained 6" in luff length after. I wonder if the bolt rope actually shrinks or is it the sail fabric that stretches with use so needs more bolt rope length to compensate?) I will lose the bottom-most full length batten in the shortening. So the sail will become a three instead of four batten sail. I could add a normal (short) leech batten somewhere between the existing full batten sleeves. Anybody care to suggest if this is necessary? Where would be best? In the lower portion of the sail, or the middle or at the top? Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

Rardi,it is your boat! If you don't plan on high level racing, don't worry about 4th battles and such. Think about Columbus, and Magellan. What would they have given for Dacron , any Dacron.

 

[RichH]

During the late 70s and through the 80s a lot of cheap asian CRAP sailcloth flooded the US market. This material had little 'crimp' to the fiber and the fabric was dimensionally unstable ... permanently stretched and deformed a LOT as the yarns/fibers slipped over one another due to tension/stress. Dacron polyester fiber by itself is very chemically stable - the reason 1970s 'leisure suits' will remain in landfills for 500 years!.
I'd recommend to have an (older and/or well experienced) sailmaker identify the material so that you dont waste time & $$$ on a sail made with CRAP.

What's the sail loft who made this sail - their logo should be near the sails tack? Lam Sails, Neil Pryde and other Hong Kong or Taiwanese sail lofts of the 70s - 80s timeframe are usually 'junque'.

As regards battens vs. a cut off / resewn foot - you can always apply short auxiliary battens between the full battens, especially at the near towards the foot; or, just a 'long' batten between the (new) bottom batten and the new foot.

Luff Boltropes should be reset/adjusted every few 100 hours of service life, even in a new/good sail. This is an easy DIY project; PM me and I'll give you the details of how to do if you need.

If youve looked at the cost per. sq. yd. of 'good' dacron sail material - and this sail material can be identifiable as 'good' to 'very good' material (Bainbridge, Challenge etc.) and the overall condition remains good to very good, a recut/alteration can result in substantial savings over new - depending on how much expensive 'hand work' needs to be done.

 

[rardiH36]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Seeing the responses, and the suggestions to compare the cost of professional modification with a new sail, I realize that I didn't mention one factoid about the project.

The cost of cutting down the sail is pretty much nil. The sail is in my already in my possession -- a give away really -- consistent with my uncertainty that that ultimately I couldn't do anything with it. It is just me that will be doing the labor. I can factor in my $0/hr rate with great accuracy. I already have all the sewing stuff from previous sail repair and modification projects and a sewing machine good enough for the task .

So the only aspect that is giving me pause is the possibility that very old sail cloth isn't worth the trouble, even if apparently in good condition.

 

[RichH]

WHO - what manufacturer - made this beast?
Whats the 'hand' of the material .... stiff or floppy like a limp dishrag?

 

[rardiH36]

Hi Rich:

What's the sail loft who made this sail - their logo should be near the sails tack? Lam Sails, Neil
Pryde and other Hong Kong or Taiwanese sail lofts of the 70s - 80s timeframe are usually 'junque'.

I mentioned in my opening post: North Sails is the manufacturer.

Thanks for the suggestion about the supplemental battens. I think I will put one of small (normal) batten between my new foot and the first full batten which will be about 9' above the boom, and then another one between below the second full batten which is about another 9' higher. Adding a new full batten pocket all the way between the luff and the leech is above my ability. I do this stuff on a garage floor with a rugged, but not sail makers' machine. I find that I really can't venture too far away from the edges.

I remember from years back your advice about the bolt rope shrinkage and have actioned on it for my current main sail. And I've also found that on a jib, when the luff tape is removed to allow the older sail cloth to lay flat in it's new many years stretched out "alignment", my ~43' jib luffs suddenly became 6-8 inches longer. Good thing that my two jibs were about the same amount too short for my boat. So they still fit after I also re-cut the luff curve straighter and then re-sewed the luff tape back on.

 

[rardiH36]

WHO - what manufacturer - made this beast?
Whats the 'hand' of the material .... stiff or floppy like a limp dishrag?

Rich:

As I included in my opening post, the material is still reasonably stiff. Even the sail cloth along the leech still has some meat to it. North Sails was the manufacturer.

 

[RichH]

North didnt notably use 'crap' for sail cloth material.
Sounds like a good possibility that you may have a winner albeit with a few sweat equity labor hours thrown in on your part.

Changing out and repositioning entire batten sections on an already made sail, especially of 'heavy' cloth, is the least 'favorite' thing to do on a sail ... unless your sewing machine arm clearance / geometry is big enough to drive a small automobile under it.

Good luck, hope it works out well for you. ;-)

 

[Benny17441]

You have a very valid concern, the Dacron may look new but it may have degraded to the point whether the anticipated useful life does not merit the cost or work involved in cutting it to size. I would recommend you take it to a sail loft and have it professionally inspected. You can also at the same time get an estimate for the cost of having it cut and washed. The mainsail of a boat is no place to skimp and cut corners. It can make the difference between having a boat exiting or frustrating to sail. The cut and positioning of the battens needs to be made in such a way to render the correct shape that would provide the most lift. You may need to reposition the reefing points. Sewing and attaching the fixtures may be the easy part but it require experience to make the proper cuts. Find out the price of good used sails and use it as a yardstick as to how much would you be willing to invest in cutting this one.

 

[Apex]

Rardi, seems like an easy decision: If it doesn't work out, you have at least practiced your sail altering/repair skills. The supplies and your available time being the only cost considerations, GO FOR IT. From your description of the cloth, my completely unqualified opinion is you should be ok. The leach and front baten pockets take the worst beating, and if those look sound you were dealt a real nice freebie. G/L and share pictures as you go :O)

 

[Steve Dion]

Rardi:

Have you checked with a sail maker to get a price on re-mfg. of the sail? Check on that.

It was probably good cloth (North Sails) when it was originally mfg. so that should not be much of an issue.

Compare the price to re-cut this old sail against a new one from this website. That will give you a good comparison.

Depending on who is doing the re-man you may or may not end up with a good sail.

 

[py26129]

Rardi:

Have you checked with a sail maker to get a price on re-mfg. of the sail? Check on that.

It was probably good cloth (North Sails) when it was originally mfg. so that should not be much of an issue.

Compare the price to re-cut this old sail against a new one from this website. That will give you a good comparison.

Depending on who is doing the re-man you may or may not end up with a good sail.

Sounds to me like the cloth is in decent enough shape to make this worth a try. Since you're the one putting in the labour, all you have to loose is yout rime and effort. if ti does nto work out, you can still order a new sail.

Cheers

Matt

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Rardi,

I like what Apex & Stu said.

Hey, it's your call, if you feel the sail is worth it, give it a shot.
It also can depend on where the sail was kept.

My boat was setup for club racing, so I also have a club sail setup.
It is a lovely blade of a sail I may use it every five years or so.
The fabric is still newly-stiff & hardly ever used. I could sell it as almost new.
I keep it in my extra/boat/sail etc. room.

They only consideration I see then, is in the stitching, my panels on all my sails never blew out first, only the stitching went first. An old sail maker told me once it was always the stitching that should fail first, and that's what saves the panels.

So, I would think it would depend on was where the sail was stored. If on the boat, remember UV penetrates fiberglass. So if stored for years aboard, I would have the sail maker look for discoloration and/or very fine cracking in the stitching first.

Just what I have seen over the years pal, good luck.

CR

 

[capta]

I'd be careful about using an overweight sail. My genoa is way too heavy and the sail is almost unmanageable, even on the furler, so much so, I haven't used it in three years.
You might want to add some reef points as you may not be able to sail under the whole main very often.

 

[John Nantz]

Rich - First off, let me say that I'm in the "save the sail" camp. And I applaud you for considering to take on this project. There are a lot of sailors, and I'd say me included, that would leave the sail work to a loft and just fork out the money. The more hands-on work we sailors can do the more we learn about the ins-and-outs of maintaining our boats.

Bolt rope: Typically they do shrink over the years. Maybe there are newer material formulations that don't shrink but historically it was the bolt rope that shrank.

Sail cloth: The North lofts used material that was tested and that makes good sense because the larger lofts have to protect their name and if it ever came out that there was a bad batch it would hurt their image and that is a lot of lofts.

Sail cloth weight: The San Francisco Bay gets some strong winds so having a heavier-weight sail cloth (read: more strength) means it isn't going to stretch as much. I was looking at a larger boat in Alameda with the thought of sailing it up the coast and on the test sail I could see, suspicions confirmed, that the sails were totally blown out. It was a blustery afternoon so that was perfect timing. I figured they wouldn't be very good but didn't think they would be that bad.

With my own sails, when I replaced them I went with the next heavier sail cloth and they have held up really nice. I'm not a "rail-in-the-water" sailor but sometimes it happens that you know there is a bad area and all you want to do is get past it without having to do a lot of reefing work or something, anyway, the original ones didn't last that long for my taste.

A new sail for your boat from a major loft is going to be really expensive so if what you got was gratis then the work that you're contemplating would provide a heavy-duty sail that if the shape work should last a long time.

New slugs, bolt rope, luff adjuster line?, thread, re-use the D-rings, webbing, …. a heck of a lot less than a new sail.

As a thought I'd toss out there, maybe adding a Dutchman system for easier flaking?

You'll need a new sail cover.

Interesting project. Will you need a loft to help with any details? Maybe they could string it up to determine what the sail shape will be.

 

[rardiH36]

Great replies and thoughts from everyone. They have prompted me to consider a lot more than only the "first blush" impressions.

Comments about good North Sail fabric quality did sway me in the “do it” direction.

Might be a few months before I get started. No hurry since I do have a useable main sail on my boat and I do actually go sailing! But I will go ahead definitely with the DIY cut-down. Or more accurately it will be a cut-up from the bottom. And hopefully the project won't turn out to be a total "cut-up".

I will re-open this thread if I need some advice once I get into it. And will report the outcome of the DIY experience.

John: What is a “luff adjuster line”? The project sail’s leech line is the type that has small blocks mounted on the head-board to route the line from the leech back down through a luff sleeve. The leech line tension is then adjusted at the mast rather than by climbing up on the cockpit seats on a close haul to reach the line at the leech near the clew. Is this what you are referring to? I currently have lazy jacks installed which nicely capture my current full-length batten main sail over the boom. The re-cut "new" sail, also with full length battens, should also do the same. My sail cover also I expect will still fit. It’s actually in quite good condition and appearance.

Benny and Capta: As for adding/repositioning reef points. The sail’s second reef point will become the first and only reef after the cut-down. At about 7’ up from the new foot, it will be a pretty aggressive first reef. I will of course contemplate adding a second reef point. (Which is something I needed to do on my current sail which came with only one reef point. But it’s first reef was only about 5’ up which wasn’t enough for San Francisco Bay sailing on my 4’11’ keel depth boat anyway. So maybe 7’ will be a good compromise for SF Bay day sailing. We’ll have to see.)

Capta: I appreciate your observation about over weight fabric. I agree there is no way the fabric weight of the project sail would be ok for my 135 Genoa (which is pretty thin so I am amazed hasn’t ripped apart by now!). But for a main sail, hopefully the extra-heavy weight won’t be so much of an issue.

By fortunate coincidence, the luff to foot length ratio of the sail works out quite well. The point where I will cut the sail’s current 49’ luff to my boat’s required 41’ corresponds to 12’5” along the new foot. My boat’s spec is 12’9”. Close enough that I won’t notice the difference. The sail has quite a full roach which will probably compensate – and likely add to the challenging sensation of weather helm! I have measured the sail’s roach curve at the battens, and scaling these onto Hunter's drawings of my boat, the most pronounced section (the second full batten from the top) looks to miss my back stay by about 3-4”. I do have a topping lift, which would be an issue except that I always detach it from the end of the boom when sailing.

Some have mentioned sail shape concerns – and that it’s best left to a professional loft. I agree, but I am going to wing it on this. Sighting down the current luff while the sail is laying flat, it’s totally straight. No slight convex shape on the lower/mid portion. I’ve got a mast-head rig, and despite numerous attempts through the years, never could induce much (if any) mast pre-bend with the interplay between the forward and aft lower shrouds vis-à-vis the forestay/backstay tensions. So straight luff is how I will leave it. Too much work to remove the luff rope and re-cut the shape would be de-motivating as well. For central San Francisco Bay day sailing, I am inclined to having durable sail, rather than achieving the extra ¼- ½ kt.

 

[John Nantz]

My Bad!

Oh my gosh, did I actually say that???
It's been a very long day here, taking care of the wife with a flu bug, dealing with a problem with the rental, making meals (I'm no cook), …. Of course, it's the leach line. My bad.

John: What is a “luff adjuster line”? The project sail’s leech line is the type that has small blocks mounted on the head-board to route the line from the leech back down through a luff sleeve. The leech line tension is then adjusted at the mast rather than by climbing up on the cockpit seats on a close haul to reach the line at the leech near the clew. Is this what you are referring to? I currently have lazy jacks installed which nicely capture my current full-length batten main sail over the boom. The re-cut "new" sail, also with full length battens, should also do the same. My sail cover also I expect will still fit. It’s actually in quite good condition and appearance.

Didn't think about lazy jacks. I've got a Dutchman so that was wired in my brain cells. That should work.

As for the sail cover, if it is currently kinda loose fitting then that should be okay too. With the extra sail weight it'll probably be less flakeable and maybe take up a tad bit more volume. If the sail cover becomes too tight of a fit then one could just add a couple strips along the bottom. Should be an easy fix, if needed. Ditto around the front of the mast. Actually, the part in the front of the mast may need a little extra material.

Doing the cut at the bottom of the sail in order to save the reinforcing, crinkles, and hand stitching at the head is a good move. There's a Lot of work there.

Since the foot is being removed maybe the bolt rope could be reused? Just leave it in the luff and not cut it at the tack when the foot is cut off. On the other hand, if the bolt rope goes through the groove in the boom then a large one might not fit. Something to check on.

What is the price on a new comparable main from North? If you knew who the original owner was and which North loft it came from, they might have all the specs in their computer or database.

Thanks for catching that. Gezze, can't believe it.

Edit: That was a good check to catch the backstay clearance. If there isn't enough, especially with a full batten, it can be a bit of a struggle to get the sail across so good catch.