Anyone familiar with the Challenger on ebay?

[TomY]

A basketcase in Conn. Take a look.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alden-Ch ... dZViewItem

 

[jsmall]

I think it is a boat named Black Star. The previous owner has posted on this forum.
Jimmy Small

 

[Simon Colley]

Based on the information posted on eBay, does anyone think this is a worthwhile project?

I would probably have someone else do the work (I work at sea so can't take it on as a project).

Any thoughts gratefully received.

Simon

 

[TomY]

Hi Simon. Based on that ad,

the boat looks like a very lengthy project. It's missing some major components, rig, engine, cockpit just to name a few, that could add up to alot of time and money.

But, with some creative thinking and a lesser amount of money, someone could do a nice restoration.

 

[Whit]

For roughly the cost of a similar size new boat, Rummery's could probably put her back together and someone would have a classic.

 

[stevens]

If rigging and good sails are available and deck, coach roof need cosmetics only, e.g. new awlgrip, and boat needs new engine,
and if there are no osmodic blisters, based on my experience I'd say $60,000-90,000 which includes $20,000 for new yanmar 30. I'm assuming below decks is as in the photo, and that boat doesn't need chainplates. Most Challlengers will need new cockpits at some point. Top price for challenger that I've
seen is in England for $145,000. We need a challenger poster-girl with excellent restoration with easy to find photo's on the internet to
boost everyone's sell price. What prices have others seen?

 

[TomY]

If rigging and good sails are available and deck, coach roof need cosmetics only, e.g. new awlgrip, and boat needs new engine,
and if there are no osmodic blisters, based on my experience I'd say $60,000-90,000 which includes $20,000 for new yanmar 30. I'm assuming below decks is as in the photo, and that boat doesn't need chainplates. Most Challlengers will need new cockpits at some point. Top price for challenger that I've
seen is in England for $145,000. We need a challenger poster-girl with excellent restoration with easy to find photo's on the internet to
boost everyone's sell price. What prices have others seen?

I've seen them all over the chart. I think the wide price range is directly connected to the level of maintenance the boat has had over the years. The fact that a good portion of a Challenger is wooden construction may be one of it's downfalls. Wood simply doesn't do well unless it's properly maintained. Having said that, it's not that tricky either and simple work for those experienced with it.

And of course the wooden parts of the boats are one of their unique features and should be enjoyed for the transitional idea of this era of boat design. It's a snap shot in time.

I suspect Challengers reasonably maintained have past their bottom in resale value. This site could well be one of the most important tools in raising their value. An increased demand in this type of boat will simply raise the level of maintenance of the boats. Living here in coastal Maine, wooden boats are very highly regarded and the skills to keep them in top condition are easily available and affordable (in the scheme of boats). The Challengers, if a reasonable popularity is there, could easily take advantage of some of these skills.

The good news is the hull as damaged by neglect due of course to the fiberglass. As a classic boat for a restoration, it's less problematic than many all wooden boats that are routinely getting a complete boat yard restoration around here.

 

[Philip dann]

Hi,I am the person who has bought Black Star,I live in the UK but will be going out to Conneticut next week.I have a very good friend who is now suffering seriously with Parkinsons,who owned until a few years ago a Challenger sloop called Mock Turtle which is not in the list,he informed me that he thought this was the original name and in the many years he owned her he sailed her all over Europe,many times single handed,he said that had he been able he would have raced me in the purchase of Black Star.Another friend bought Mock Turtle and took her through the French canals and down the Mediteranean to Portugal from where she was sold by his widow to a person who may have taken her to Argentina.

 

[CaravelaofExe]

Re: Black Star & Mock Turtle

Hi Philip,

“Congratulations” may be thought too strong in some quarters. But these are fantastic boats no matter what, so why not say it?

Thanks for solving a little conundrum. I knew “949OO” from my Alden Fiberglass Boats thread was built by Halmatic and finished (?) by Ernest Wade of Isle of Wight (the only Challenger finished by that company) and her commissioning owner E.D. Groom of London. But the Alden company lists don’t name her, and I never found MOCK TURTLE in Lloyds Register of Yachts and therefore was able to connect them. The unnamed Wade finished boat remained in the yachts under construction and not yet named section of the U.K Lloyds R.Y. from 1963 to 1968 and then disappeared. Lazily, I didn’t pick up the trail again in later Lloyds. Now having a name to go by makes it easy.

MOCK TURTLE is eventually listed in Lloyds Register of yachts from 1971 (as built by Halmatic & Ernest Wade of Bembridge, Isle of Wight, but with no mention of Alden as designer until 1974). We can take it that she was finally completed in 1970/71, as her 42hp Mercedes Benz dates from then. Her 1971 owners were Mr. W.A. and Mrs. E.B. Walters of Poole, Dorset, England, who in ’71 were also listed as owners of the 40ft Phil Rhodes/ Cheoy Lee fibreglass yawl RAPSCALLION, and, in ’72, as owners of MOCK TURTLE and the Uus Van Essen designed 45ft steel ketch CHARANE.

By 1973 the Walters seemed to have settled on just CHARANE. MOCK TURTLE was sold to the Essex based owner that I presume is your friend, and remained listed under his ownership until the 1978 edition of L.R.Y. MOCK TURTLE was not listed after that.

As the Queen said to Alice (in Wonderland), `Have you seen the Mock Turtle yet?'. I have good contacts in Argentina; I’ll try to see if she can be found.

Would your friend be prepared to allow a photo of MOCK TURTLE to be posted on this forum? Also, I’m interested in the fact that L.R.Y. never listed her as a centre-board boat. Did she have one? Or was part of the reason for her long commissioning period that she was modified with a deeper keel?

Anyway, all the best for your project. What chances an Alden Fiberglass Boats rendezvous in Europe soon?

So far as I know we could potentially gather:

CHALLENGER

Possibles

949U PRION, believed based Wales
949KK GISELLE OF IKEN, based N.Wales

Others

949DD “Meridian of Greenwich” (exScylla), orig based North Wales
949GG “Mimiverre”, orig based Hamble, England
949VV “Lyra”, orig. based Cowes, England)
949BBB “?”, orig. owned by Ocean Youth Club, England
949DDD “Petard, orig based Kiel,Germany (Royal Engineers Y.C.)

ZEPHYR

Others

959H “Vanity”, orig. based Copenhagen, Denmark
959J “Black Magic”, orig. based Kalundborg, Denmark

MISTRAL

Possible

981J OLEANDER, based Inverness, Scotland
981K MISS DEMENA, based Kinsale, Ireland

Others

981F “Sonsie”, orig. based Hamble, England
981G “Ti”, orig. Halmatic demo. boat, England)

CARAVELLE

Possible

992J CARAVELA OF EXE, based Denmark

Others

992K “Trotolla”, orig. based Viareggio, Italy

Iain

 

[TomY]

Hi,I am the person who has bought Black Star,I live in the UK but will be going out to Conneticut next week.I have a very good friend who is now suffering seriously with Parkinsons,who owned until a few years ago a Challenger sloop called Mock Turtle which is not in the list,he informed me that he thought this was the original name and in the many years he owned her he sailed her all over Europe,many times single handed,he said that had he been able he would have raced me in the purchase of Black Star.Another friend bought Mock Turtle and took her through the French canals and down the Mediteranean to Portugal from where she was sold by his widow to a person who may have taken her to Argentina.

Hi Philip, how did you come to finding Black Star and what are your plans? I hope you keep us posted, there's alot of good information here as well as experience with Challengers. Thanks for filling in some holes for Iains list.

 

[Philip dann]

I am at present in Portland Conecticut staying on my recent aquisition Black Star,maybe I am more optimistic than some but with a fair bit of time on my hands and some skills at my fingertips I should have her in the water maybe summer next year.It looks to me as if previous owners were looking too far ahead with the work required and as I have often seen were keen to remove parts but slow to put them together again.I restored my UK based 1931 Hillyard 7 tonner(the same as Arthur Ransoms,Nancy Blacket)which had been out of the water 12 years and shall be going to Brest on her in July,plus several other wooden boats before then.I look at immediate requirements and try to catch up with the other jobs as I go,it means some work never really gets finished but it gets the boat out of the yard and into the water,as long as it is safe,I shall probably stay around this area for a few years as I have had a yearning to explore the American coastline for a time now,that is why I was looking on Ebay and knowing of Challengers from my UK friend I decided to take a chance and buy unseen as the dollar exchange rate was also good against the pound.There are a few things missing but they can be replaced or made as neccessary although there is some cost involved having a small pension makes you look for alternatives,I think Ians idea of a European rally is great,maybe I can eavesdrop from my other boat and gather ideas for my restoration of Black Star.

 

[TomY]

It looks to me as if previous owners were looking too far ahead with the work required and as I have often seen were keen to remove parts but slow to put them together again.

A wise observation Philip. In a professional boat yard where a restoration is taking place, these boats may be taken down to the basic hull, deck and cabin (sometimes that's removed as well on Challengers) in the process of a full restoration. But for the DIY restorer, I think it's better to move in smaller increments.

These Challengers now nearly 50 years old have many areas now needing attention. But that doesn't necessarily mean tearing an entire area out, such as a cockpit. Repairs can often be made to what needs attention due to age or lack of maintenance. Once the entire structure is gone, it becomes a more difficult task to reverse, especially for the next owner. Even when an entirely new cockpit is required, it's better to have the old one to build to on hand.

You sound as though you've been through this before and have the confidence to do what's required. Have you laid a plan yet on proceeding with your project? Don't hesitate for any details or measurements that could be provided here, I would enjoy helping.

 

[Philip dann]

Thanks for the offer Tom,I am hoping to get some drawings and manuals from the previous owner and then will know a little more,I have to return to the UK this Thursday so will return with a list of requirements that can be brought over in my hand luggage later in the year.The mast I have is bare of fittings and 2 feet short but I think it is possible to make a solid step 2 feet higher and I am hoping to buy a secondhand mast here in Connecticut complete with stays and spreaders,it is too big in section to use and is also deck stepped.It is in the yard here and they asked me for $2500 or they will put it on Ebay,I would like to buy it before I leave but I do not think its worth that much what say you,they have suggested i find out its worth on the internet,it has some corrosion around the lower fittings but as I only want the fittings I would sell it on after I have what I need.I hope to Epoxy over cloth on the deck before the winter and offer up the half complete cockpit to see what is still required.As I said I need to see another boat and some drawings and manuals before I can be fully in the picture, I will be pleased to hear from you with any advise or help.

Philip Dann

 

[rjoconnell]

Philip,

Well, good luck with the restoration. When you come back to the States and you want to look at another Challenger, feel free to contact us. We're in Quisset harbor, near Woods Hole, during the summer, and we would be happy show you around the boat to see how things were done.

Rick

 

[Philip dann]

Thanks Rick I may be very pleased to do that next year,I had hoped the previous owner was going to send the drawings and manuals while I was there,in the hope that I could measure a few things and maybe source some items whilst I was there but no luck.I wanted Mast cross section(aluminium)and length plus details of the rigging fittings,also cockpit dimensions,I offered up the plywood box section already made to the cutout in the cockpit surround and found it too long so was unable to know what to alter.I did manage to refit some of the removed items so that I know where many of them go and have read a lot of the letters in the forum I learnt quite a few things also.I managed to get the Atomic engine going and it seemed to run very well so next spring I hope to get launched and I can at least motor up and down the Connecticut river and maybe later in the year get some sail on her although there are many small parts missing which must be in some previous owners garage or workshop as they are of little use to most people,the last three deny having anything but I believe the compass is with one of them.If nothing drawing wise is forthcoming then I shall have to go back to Aldens and see what I can find out.

 

[TomY]

Thanks Rick I may be very pleased to do that next year,I had hoped the previous owner was going to send the drawings and manuals while I was there,in the hope that I could measure a few things and maybe source some items whilst I was there but no luck.I wanted Mast cross section(aluminium)and length plus details of the rigging fittings,also cockpit dimensions,I offered up the plywood box section already made to the cutout in the cockpit surround and found it too long so was unable to know what to alter.I did manage to refit some of the removed items so that I know where many of them go and have read a lot of the letters in the forum I learnt quite a few things also.I managed to get the Atomic engine going and it seemed to run very well so next spring I hope to get launched and I can at least motor up and down the Connecticut river and maybe later in the year get some sail on her although there are many small parts missing which must be in some previous owners garage or workshop as they are of little use to most people,the last three deny having anything but I believe the compass is with one of them.If nothing drawing wise is forthcoming then I shall have to go back to Aldens and see what I can find out.

Keep in mind Philip as you think about the cockpit, it's a fairly simple build. In a nutshell, working from the center of the cockpit outward; the well is a simple box with no top. It is supported on the port and starboard side by either a simple bulkhead or short support posts, below. It is also hung from the upper 4 sides by; the bridgedeck forward, the cockpit seats port and starboard, and the narrow seats aft.

Going up from there, the next plane; the bridgedeck is hung from the aft cabin house forward. The cockpit seats (which of course will be either full lid-as designed- or cut out hinged lids) are hung from the coamings port and starboard. The aft seat deck is hung from the aft coaming piece. (When I say hung, generally these are fastened upward from below into the coamings, with screws)

Going up the final plane; the cockpit coamings port, starboard and aft, are bolted to the flange of the the fiberglass decks.

That is without details of course, but essentially that's how the cockpit is built. Alden would have the cockpit spec drawings but we could give you measurements here when you need them. I will need to replace mine at some point as it has suffered some rot which I have repaired for now. The Challenger cockpit is one of it's best features, very commodious.

 

[Philip dann]

Thank you Tom for those details which answer a few mental thoughts,I will obtain drawings from somewhere before my return to Portland.In part answer to Ians questions about Mock Turtle,I know she did have a centre board but it was steel and operated by the standard cockpit mechanism,I shall probably see my friend who owned her this week and ask him about pictures of her,has Ian the means to find out the original name of Black Star ex Kelpie 949JJ ?

 

[Mohawk]

Hi Tom and others with Challengers...
I'm trying to find details (dims/construction plans) for the Deck Box fitted to the counter of many Challengers (as I understand it). My boat has no such box and I would love to have one fitted as it's most useful for extra storage and possible extra protection for the helmsman/woman. I'm not sure if it was removed at some stage or it was never built? Her GRP hull was by Halmatic/Portsmouth and finished by A Le Compte in Jutphaas, Netherlands in 1960. Is there a general trend for Deck Boxes being built by one or other finishing company and not others?
Any help gratefully received!
Thanks... Jon/'Mohawk'

 

[TomY]

Hi Jon, I seem to remember that in Arthur Beisers review of the Alden Challenger in his book the Proper Yacht, the deck box (and the fireplace) were options. I don't know if anyone has the original drawing here, but I'd be glad to measure mine. The difficult thing would be finding the mahogany stock for the sides. It's solid and of wide planks(at least 12" I think) and the corners are nicely hand dove tailed. This lid is a piece of mahogany ply, the bottom a looks to be standard marine fir ply. It is handy for storing docks lines and misc. needed from the cockpit. I had never thought about it, but you're right, it does give the cockpit and helm a bit of protection. It's also a good to lean a cushion and read on the aft deck.

 

[rjoconnell]

Hi Jon,

The deckbox on Whisper holds two propane tanks. It's mahogany, but has no bottom. It is sealed where it meets the deck, and there is a vent hose that goes from the bottom out to the transom in case of propane leaks. The box works well as a backrest and seat, as Tom noted. I think there is a picture of our box on one of my posts. It could hold a solar panel, but then it wouldn't look as good. I think its about 12 x 12x 40 inches.

Rick