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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
It's an excellent toilet...but--
they're a LOT more expensive than they're worth. I had one on my last two boats. When I installed it, it was the best toilet on the market. However, in the last few years there have been improvements in macerating electric toilets that have resulted in much better toilets that can also use fresh water--and very little of it--and fewer amp hours for considerably less money. The VacuFlush doesn't macerate...waste is sucked through the system by accumulated vacuum when that vacuum is released. That splatters waste in various size pieces all over the inside of the hoses and vacuum accumulator tank. The highly touted one pint of water isn't enough to rinse it out, and the flush water flow is so weak that flushing longer doesn't accomplish much either. So unless you fill the bowl completely a couple of times and flush that through at least once a day, you'll not only have permeated hoses in a very short time (only took two months on my boat), but if you're lucky enough to avoid that, urine crystal buildup in the hoses that can reduce the diameter to less than an inch in a year or two. There are several macerating electric toilets which offer a fresh water solenoid option and use as little a quart per flush...or even a "dry bowl" flush, something the V/Flush cannot do. Macerated waste is liquid, and the water flow behind the bowl contents completely rinses the hose. All the parts of macerating electric toilets are contained in the bowl assembly. VacuFlush toilets require finding space elsewhere in the boat for the vacuum accumulator tank and vacuum pump or the combination "vacuum generator" and none of 'em are small. As for the low current draw, it's important to understand the distinction between amperage *draw* and amp hours *consumed." The V/Flush DRAWS only 5-6 amps...but the pump runs for about 45 seconds after each flush, and if the system develops an air leak, it can come on between flushes and even run continuously till somebody notices it. Macerating toilets equipped with fresh water solenoids *draw* 10-15 amps--2-3 times that of the V/Flush, but only run for 10-15 seconds during each flush, resulting in half the power *consumption* of the V/Flush. And they don't magically turn themselves on for no reason. V/Flush toilets are only available from "Authorized VacuFlush Service Centers" for their full list price of about $1100, and unless installed by "authorized" dealers (average cost: another $1,000-$1500), your warranty is void. Although macerating electric toilets have list prices of anywhere from $700-1100, every one of them is available through discount marine retailers for an average of 30% less, and you can install any of 'em yourself without voiding your warranty. I certainly wouldn't ever recommend pulling a VacuFlush that's already been installed off any boat...'cuz yes, it does work as advertised (within the limitations described above)...yes, it's trouble-free (within the same limitations)...and it's a no-brainer for landlubber guests and children to use, and yes, they're suitable for use on sailboats. They're everything they claim to be. But so are macerating electric toilets equipped with the fresh water solenoid option...and even a 5 year old can touch a touch pad to activate a timed flush. So I just can't see spending what a VacuFlush costs when you can have everything they offer--and MORE--for 1/3-1/2 the price.
they're a LOT more expensive than they're worth. I had one on my last two boats. When I installed it, it was the best toilet on the market. However, in the last few years there have been improvements in macerating electric toilets that have resulted in much better toilets that can also use fresh water--and very little of it--and fewer amp hours for considerably less money. The VacuFlush doesn't macerate...waste is sucked through the system by accumulated vacuum when that vacuum is released. That splatters waste in various size pieces all over the inside of the hoses and vacuum accumulator tank. The highly touted one pint of water isn't enough to rinse it out, and the flush water flow is so weak that flushing longer doesn't accomplish much either. So unless you fill the bowl completely a couple of times and flush that through at least once a day, you'll not only have permeated hoses in a very short time (only took two months on my boat), but if you're lucky enough to avoid that, urine crystal buildup in the hoses that can reduce the diameter to less than an inch in a year or two. There are several macerating electric toilets which offer a fresh water solenoid option and use as little a quart per flush...or even a "dry bowl" flush, something the V/Flush cannot do. Macerated waste is liquid, and the water flow behind the bowl contents completely rinses the hose. All the parts of macerating electric toilets are contained in the bowl assembly. VacuFlush toilets require finding space elsewhere in the boat for the vacuum accumulator tank and vacuum pump or the combination "vacuum generator" and none of 'em are small. As for the low current draw, it's important to understand the distinction between amperage *draw* and amp hours *consumed." The V/Flush DRAWS only 5-6 amps...but the pump runs for about 45 seconds after each flush, and if the system develops an air leak, it can come on between flushes and even run continuously till somebody notices it. Macerating toilets equipped with fresh water solenoids *draw* 10-15 amps--2-3 times that of the V/Flush, but only run for 10-15 seconds during each flush, resulting in half the power *consumption* of the V/Flush. And they don't magically turn themselves on for no reason. V/Flush toilets are only available from "Authorized VacuFlush Service Centers" for their full list price of about $1100, and unless installed by "authorized" dealers (average cost: another $1,000-$1500), your warranty is void. Although macerating electric toilets have list prices of anywhere from $700-1100, every one of them is available through discount marine retailers for an average of 30% less, and you can install any of 'em yourself without voiding your warranty. I certainly wouldn't ever recommend pulling a VacuFlush that's already been installed off any boat...'cuz yes, it does work as advertised (within the limitations described above)...yes, it's trouble-free (within the same limitations)...and it's a no-brainer for landlubber guests and children to use, and yes, they're suitable for use on sailboats. They're everything they claim to be. But so are macerating electric toilets equipped with the fresh water solenoid option...and even a 5 year old can touch a touch pad to activate a timed flush. So I just can't see spending what a VacuFlush costs when you can have everything they offer--and MORE--for 1/3-1/2 the price.
G
George
Believe your Friends
VacuFlush Toilets are the BEST! And Peggie Hall confesses to that. They use about a quart of fresh water per flush, and the newer pumps run about 20% faster (shorter run time to build up vacuum) and use the same 5-6 amp draw, and shutoff time has a lot to be determined by hose length (from toilet to vacuum generator). When you step on the pedal to flush, the waste is moved 20 feet per second compared to an electric or manual toilet where after the button is released ,the waste stays wherever it is. Peggy complains about permeated hose, this is the hose manufacturer and how the boat was plumbed, not low water usage. Here is a fact that everybody fails to see, that is if your head is also in the shower compartment, the VacuFlush toilet is totally waterproof as where an electric head, the moisture will make the motor fail sooner and it also looks years old from the scaling rust. Lastly, VacuFlush toilets are pricey but they have a Dealer Network Worldwide, that will assure you that the head is installed correctly and gets repaired, quickly and right, these technicians go to training for this, I don’t know of any other Marine Toilets manufacturer that does this. Bottom line is, It will be the first and last toilet your boat will ever need.
VacuFlush Toilets are the BEST! And Peggie Hall confesses to that. They use about a quart of fresh water per flush, and the newer pumps run about 20% faster (shorter run time to build up vacuum) and use the same 5-6 amp draw, and shutoff time has a lot to be determined by hose length (from toilet to vacuum generator). When you step on the pedal to flush, the waste is moved 20 feet per second compared to an electric or manual toilet where after the button is released ,the waste stays wherever it is. Peggy complains about permeated hose, this is the hose manufacturer and how the boat was plumbed, not low water usage. Here is a fact that everybody fails to see, that is if your head is also in the shower compartment, the VacuFlush toilet is totally waterproof as where an electric head, the moisture will make the motor fail sooner and it also looks years old from the scaling rust. Lastly, VacuFlush toilets are pricey but they have a Dealer Network Worldwide, that will assure you that the head is installed correctly and gets repaired, quickly and right, these technicians go to training for this, I don’t know of any other Marine Toilets manufacturer that does this. Bottom line is, It will be the first and last toilet your boat will ever need.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
I can't argue with anything you said except:
"Peggy complains about permeated hose, this is the hose manufacturer and how the boat was plumbed, not low water usage." Waste IS splattered all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank and will permeate any hose. SeaLand's "OdorSafe" hose only exists because they were getting so many complaints about it--from customers who'd had installed by the trained "technicians" (I was one, btw) using their own hose, that they had no choice but to find a solution to that problem. And they did come up with a rather ingenious solution: since there's no way to make any hose itself odor-impermeable, they figured out how to bond an impermeable "skin" the outside of the hose. The hose still permeates, but that "skin" contains it. I've never said that it's not an excellent toilet...it is. If you're buying a used boat that already has one, count your blessings. But is it 3x better than any other toilet that costs 1/3 as much installed? I don't think it's ANY better, and I've had one on two boats and been part of that "worldwide dealer network." You'll be happy with 'em...you'll just spend a lot more than you need to spend to be just as happy.
"Peggy complains about permeated hose, this is the hose manufacturer and how the boat was plumbed, not low water usage." Waste IS splattered all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank and will permeate any hose. SeaLand's "OdorSafe" hose only exists because they were getting so many complaints about it--from customers who'd had installed by the trained "technicians" (I was one, btw) using their own hose, that they had no choice but to find a solution to that problem. And they did come up with a rather ingenious solution: since there's no way to make any hose itself odor-impermeable, they figured out how to bond an impermeable "skin" the outside of the hose. The hose still permeates, but that "skin" contains it. I've never said that it's not an excellent toilet...it is. If you're buying a used boat that already has one, count your blessings. But is it 3x better than any other toilet that costs 1/3 as much installed? I don't think it's ANY better, and I've had one on two boats and been part of that "worldwide dealer network." You'll be happy with 'em...you'll just spend a lot more than you need to spend to be just as happy.
T
Tom
George....spoken like A Vacu-Flush dealer
If I didn't know any better from your response it sounds like you have a vested interest in promoting Vacu-Flush. I would have felt a lot better if you described the benefits of this system installed in your own boat and your personal experieces with installation and use in your own boat. Or maybe explained the pros and cons of differents systems as Peggy did. There is nothing wrong with being a dealer or for that matter, the Vacu-flush system, but your overwhelmingly biased response begs the question..........
If I didn't know any better from your response it sounds like you have a vested interest in promoting Vacu-Flush. I would have felt a lot better if you described the benefits of this system installed in your own boat and your personal experieces with installation and use in your own boat. Or maybe explained the pros and cons of differents systems as Peggy did. There is nothing wrong with being a dealer or for that matter, the Vacu-flush system, but your overwhelmingly biased response begs the question..........
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warren feldstein
I have vacu flush
We had the factory install 2 vacu flush heads on our 460. The cost of the upgrade was $3,000 CDN. I think the heads are great, although, sometimes, they do get gremlins and start pumping. The trick is water must be in the bowl all of the time. The problem only occurs after pump out. Warren
We had the factory install 2 vacu flush heads on our 460. The cost of the upgrade was $3,000 CDN. I think the heads are great, although, sometimes, they do get gremlins and start pumping. The trick is water must be in the bowl all of the time. The problem only occurs after pump out. Warren
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Warren, it's prob'ly time to replace the
duckbill valves in the vacuum pump. It shouldn't be necessary to keep water in the bowl to prevent the pump from cycling. There are 4 of 'em--2 in and 2 out--cost, about U$D8 ea. And they do wear out over time, just as joker valves in other toilets do...average lifespan is about 2 years. However, I'm a little concerned that it only happens after pump out. If the holding tank vent is functioning properly, there should be no stress on the toilet at all. So check your tank vent thru-hull for a partial blockage. If you didn't keep the owners manual, you can--and should!--get one from SeaLand and keep it on the boat. There isn't a symptom that toilet can develop that isn't addressed in it--cause and cure.
duckbill valves in the vacuum pump. It shouldn't be necessary to keep water in the bowl to prevent the pump from cycling. There are 4 of 'em--2 in and 2 out--cost, about U$D8 ea. And they do wear out over time, just as joker valves in other toilets do...average lifespan is about 2 years. However, I'm a little concerned that it only happens after pump out. If the holding tank vent is functioning properly, there should be no stress on the toilet at all. So check your tank vent thru-hull for a partial blockage. If you didn't keep the owners manual, you can--and should!--get one from SeaLand and keep it on the boat. There isn't a symptom that toilet can develop that isn't addressed in it--cause and cure.
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Randy S.
Price
Peggy, you've commented on price a couple times. Here's an FYI from a Canadian perspective. SeaLand has a special every year that is available at our Boat Show (Vancouver). From what I understand it is offered at all the boat shows in North America where they have a presence. I just purchased the VacuFlush system (bowl and vacuum generator) for C$1400 (regular C$2000). Based on your some of your earlier postings I priced out the Raritan Atlantis - C$2000! The above price does not include the price of installation or at inspection by a certified SeaLand installer - but the point I wanted to make is the price diff is nowhere near as dramatic as you have mentioned. I certainly agree that the SeaLand stuff is outrageously priced, but so is the competition it appears. Regards....Randy
Peggy, you've commented on price a couple times. Here's an FYI from a Canadian perspective. SeaLand has a special every year that is available at our Boat Show (Vancouver). From what I understand it is offered at all the boat shows in North America where they have a presence. I just purchased the VacuFlush system (bowl and vacuum generator) for C$1400 (regular C$2000). Based on your some of your earlier postings I priced out the Raritan Atlantis - C$2000! The above price does not include the price of installation or at inspection by a certified SeaLand installer - but the point I wanted to make is the price diff is nowhere near as dramatic as you have mentioned. I certainly agree that the SeaLand stuff is outrageously priced, but so is the competition it appears. Regards....Randy
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Apples vs apples vs oranges.
It's hard to compare Canadian prices with US prices because international shipping charges from a US factory to a Canadian dealer is higher and customs fees are added. However, I ran some currency calculations, and your list prices are about 20% higher than US prices...VacuFlush is about $1100 USD...so is the Raritan Atlantes. Your annual Vancouver boat show price for V/Flush works out to $889 USD...WM, B/US etc have the Atlantes with the fresh water solenoid option any time for $750-$850. However, comparing only the Atlantes to the V/Flush is misleading...it's not the only macerating electric toilet that offers an optional pressurized flush water solenoid, low water flush and low power consumption. The Raritan Crown II and SeaEra, the Wilcox Newport, and at least one Jabsco model all do, and several are available as either a complete toilet or a conversion kit, with list prices ranging from the $900s to the $400s and sell for an average 30% less at the discount marine stores--all the time, not just once a year at boat shows. And the Tecma, which is an Italian toilet Wilcox is now importing that has a list price of $500-$700 (depending upon model), just MAY kick the stuffing out of ALL of 'em. So there are a LOT of choices, in just about any price range. And none of 'em require you give up valuable storage space for components. But as long as you ARE comparing V/Flush to Atlantes, let's look at the differences: the Atlantes is full household size and is a one-piece molded china bowl and pedestal...only the V/Flush bowl is china--the rest is plastic...and the "standard" V/Flush bowl is small--not as small as the "standard" bowl on other toilets, but smaller than household. Upgrading a V/Flush to a household size bowl adds USD $300-$600, depending upon color. But the biggest difference is the cost of installation, which typically adds at least another $1,000 USD to the price of a V/Flush...and they have to install it or your warranty is void. Every other toilet can be installed by any yard, any owner, or even your brother-in-law without voiding the warranty. And with that, I've spoken my piece on the subject.
It's hard to compare Canadian prices with US prices because international shipping charges from a US factory to a Canadian dealer is higher and customs fees are added. However, I ran some currency calculations, and your list prices are about 20% higher than US prices...VacuFlush is about $1100 USD...so is the Raritan Atlantes. Your annual Vancouver boat show price for V/Flush works out to $889 USD...WM, B/US etc have the Atlantes with the fresh water solenoid option any time for $750-$850. However, comparing only the Atlantes to the V/Flush is misleading...it's not the only macerating electric toilet that offers an optional pressurized flush water solenoid, low water flush and low power consumption. The Raritan Crown II and SeaEra, the Wilcox Newport, and at least one Jabsco model all do, and several are available as either a complete toilet or a conversion kit, with list prices ranging from the $900s to the $400s and sell for an average 30% less at the discount marine stores--all the time, not just once a year at boat shows. And the Tecma, which is an Italian toilet Wilcox is now importing that has a list price of $500-$700 (depending upon model), just MAY kick the stuffing out of ALL of 'em. So there are a LOT of choices, in just about any price range. And none of 'em require you give up valuable storage space for components. But as long as you ARE comparing V/Flush to Atlantes, let's look at the differences: the Atlantes is full household size and is a one-piece molded china bowl and pedestal...only the V/Flush bowl is china--the rest is plastic...and the "standard" V/Flush bowl is small--not as small as the "standard" bowl on other toilets, but smaller than household. Upgrading a V/Flush to a household size bowl adds USD $300-$600, depending upon color. But the biggest difference is the cost of installation, which typically adds at least another $1,000 USD to the price of a V/Flush...and they have to install it or your warranty is void. Every other toilet can be installed by any yard, any owner, or even your brother-in-law without voiding the warranty. And with that, I've spoken my piece on the subject.
G
George
Not only a VacuFlush Dealer...........
I am not only a VacuFlush Dealer but I am also a dealer for Raritan, Wilcox, I service Head Hunter, Galley Maid and Jabsco. All the different toilet have their gremlins, but overall VacuFlush is far more wanted by boaters and I would reccommend over any of the above. I have been specilizing in marine sanitation for 12 years, and seen it all, this is only my opinion. As for the "waste splattering all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank" this is a new excuse for hose permeating. And as for Tom from Stamford, Did you know that Peggy is with Raritan? and maybe I do have a VacuFlush on my own boat.
I am not only a VacuFlush Dealer but I am also a dealer for Raritan, Wilcox, I service Head Hunter, Galley Maid and Jabsco. All the different toilet have their gremlins, but overall VacuFlush is far more wanted by boaters and I would reccommend over any of the above. I have been specilizing in marine sanitation for 12 years, and seen it all, this is only my opinion. As for the "waste splattering all over the inside of the hose and vacuum tank" this is a new excuse for hose permeating. And as for Tom from Stamford, Did you know that Peggy is with Raritan? and maybe I do have a VacuFlush on my own boat.
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Tom
George, Yes I did Know Peggy Hall was with Raritan
Anyone that has been on this list for very long would know that . She has never hidden the fact and is very open about it and her previous business....I guess I appreciate the full disclosure up front.........I just took a "wild" guess when I made that remark. And I am not putting down the VacuFlush at all. In fact my goodfreind (a motor boater Sea-ray owner...lol) has one on his boat and I must say...wow...it is so nice and convenient especially for Landlubber guests. But one must balance the extreem convenience to the cost to purchase, the cost to install and the complicated system if one is doing any long term cruising...(sometimes the KISS method works the best). With that said If I had one installed I wouldn't rip it out and I bet I would like it......but if I was to install a "convenient" head on a sailboat I think I would opt for one of the newer macerating heads that Peggy was refering to.
Anyone that has been on this list for very long would know that . She has never hidden the fact and is very open about it and her previous business....I guess I appreciate the full disclosure up front.........I just took a "wild" guess when I made that remark. And I am not putting down the VacuFlush at all. In fact my goodfreind (a motor boater Sea-ray owner...lol) has one on his boat and I must say...wow...it is so nice and convenient especially for Landlubber guests. But one must balance the extreem convenience to the cost to purchase, the cost to install and the complicated system if one is doing any long term cruising...(sometimes the KISS method works the best). With that said If I had one installed I wouldn't rip it out and I bet I would like it......but if I was to install a "convenient" head on a sailboat I think I would opt for one of the newer macerating heads that Peggy was refering to.
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
No...I am not employed or associated with Raritan
or any other toilet mfr in any way. I owned my own company for nearly 15 years...we specialized exclusively in marine sanitation and were distributors for Raritan. SeaLand (we were "authorized" VacuFlush dealers) , Wilcox, Groco and other equipment manufacturers. After I sold my company to Raritan in February of 1999, I spent exactly one year with them as a marketing consultant integrating my product line into theirs, during which time I installed (to Raritan's digust) a VacuFlush on my own boat. There was also a VacuFlush on my previous boat. I am not, nor have I been for the past two years, employed, retained, or otherwise affiliated in any way with any toilet mfr. I just "called 'em as I sees 'em"...always have, always will.
or any other toilet mfr in any way. I owned my own company for nearly 15 years...we specialized exclusively in marine sanitation and were distributors for Raritan. SeaLand (we were "authorized" VacuFlush dealers) , Wilcox, Groco and other equipment manufacturers. After I sold my company to Raritan in February of 1999, I spent exactly one year with them as a marketing consultant integrating my product line into theirs, during which time I installed (to Raritan's digust) a VacuFlush on my own boat. There was also a VacuFlush on my previous boat. I am not, nor have I been for the past two years, employed, retained, or otherwise affiliated in any way with any toilet mfr. I just "called 'em as I sees 'em"...always have, always will.
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