Any experience with Viper line from New England ropes?

[LakeShark]

I am looking to replace my mainsheet on my C22. I use it both for racing and cruising and want a good low stretch line. I replaced my Genoa sheet last year with Sta-Set and the darn thing stretches' when on an upwind leg something fierce, does not bite the winch all that well, and hockles badly. I am looking for a line that will preformed better on the race course, run smooth through the blocks, and last a good long time. I trailer sail so generally the lines only see the daylight for a week or two at a time for a regatta or on a cruising trip. I have a tri-radial main and full composite headsails. Next year the plan is to go for a composite main as well when I also would replace the Genoa.

So anyone have any experience with Viper lines? Or do you have a better recommendation for my applications? Defender is having their line sale so I may pull the trigger real soon on this.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

[sail sfbay]

I purchased a Viper for a spinnaker halyard. Not enough stretch and not smooth enough for a control line such as a mainsheet in my opinion.

 

[LakeShark]

I purchased a Viper for a spinnaker halyard. Not enough stretch and not smooth enough for a control line such as a mainsheet in my opinion.

Why would you want stretch in a sail control line using composite sails? I could sort of see where it might help with Dacron as they would fill with wind and become more full but even then I am a bit confused. What am I missing?

 

[sail sfbay]

In your case flying a composite sail, low stretch makes sense. My jib and mainsail are cruising tri-radial Contender CDX Pro laminate, and find Sampson XLS3 work just fine and is very comfortable.

 

[jssailem]

Why would you want stretch in a sail control line using composite sails?

These types of sails are used on high performance racing boats i.e America Cup boats. They use active crew management on hitech lines constantly adjusting the sail shape. All of the rig is attuned to the control lines. The rig is made up of the lines, the blocks, fairleads, clutches, cam cleats, winches etc.

Most of our boat rigs were not made with such lines in mind. The blocks sheaves are designed for dacron, sized lines. The winch diameters, shapes and function all reflect the lines made at the time of concept. Lines like Dyneema or Amsteel have surface coatings that make them slippery. The individual strands must slide in the bundle or they will heat up under tension. This is an issue. The strength of the line is damaged by heat.

When high tension is placed on the UHMwPE or HMPE (dyneema like lines)fibers they do stretch and heat. If the come in contact with a tight turn radius (i.e. sharp bend) they break as they heat.

 

[PaulK]

The Viper line has the polyester jacket that you want for gripping the winch and long-term UV protection. It also has a less stretchy core than the Sta-Set, which is simply polyester double braid. The diameter will impact how well it grips the winch too, though. A heftier line may be stronger than you need for the pull of the sail, but thinner line will tend to slip more easily on the winch. Since NE Ropes says Viper is new, there may not be many respondents who have experience with it.

 

[LakeShark]

Since NE Ropes says Viper is new, there may not be many respondents who have experience with it.

this seems to be what I am finding. From what I can tell its the replacement for VPC line from New England which seemed to be a line many liked. I'm torn between trying the Viper line or the Endura Braid. I want something better than Sta-set but not sure I need quite the upgrade to Endura Braid stuff.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

this seems to be what I am finding. From what I can tell its the replacement for VPC line from New England which seemed to be a line many liked. I'm torn between trying the Viper line or the Endura Braid. I want something better than Sta-set but not sure I need quite the upgrade to Endura Braid stuff.

I just bought Viper 10mm for my main halyard and genoa halyard. I thought about buying Endura but the price difference is substantial. I did buy Endura 8mm for my traveler control lines. I'll be interested to see how different they are. I bought Sampson MLX3 11mm for genoa sheets and 10 mm for main sheet. I had MLX on my Starwind and liked the feel of the lines very much. I didn't have it long enough to get a sense for the performance over time. I never liked Sta Set or Sta Set X. I've had Warp Speed for halyards and liked it, except for price. It's stiff, though, and I didn't think I would like it for sheets or control lines. I got interested in Viper because the price is reasonable so I thought I'd give it a try at least on 2 halyards.

 

[LakeShark]

@Scott T-Bird that's great information thanks. I wound up going with the Endura braid as I found it on sale at Defender for a price that was about the same as Viper is normally. After splicing in my eye's and things I am very excited to see how it works. I like the feel and the lack of any stretch is very noticeable yet its still flexible. It will be used for the Jib sheets on my 150 and for my boom vang. If I can just get the snow to melt and the lakes to thaw I would love to try it. I can also use the end pieces once its trimmed to length for some extra soft shackles with is a bonus.

 

[dave_and_dd]

@Scott T-Bird any report on how you liked the Viper halyards? I'm just about to replace my main halyard and was thinking about try this.

thanks,
Dave in Port Charlotte

 

[Scott T-Bird]

@Scott T-Bird any report on how you liked the Viper halyards? I'm just about to replace my main halyard and was thinking about try this.

thanks,
Dave in Port Charlotte

I'm happy with it. They are still a little stiff and if not flaked well, they get hung up in the clutch, but what line doesn't? They are low stretch & high strength & I think I could have gone down a size. If I'm not mistaken, I have 10 mm for halyards. I think I bought 8 mm line for my vang control line and I am very pleased with it. I also purchased Endura for the traveler controls and very pleased with that product. I think I could choose Endura just as well for halyards and possibly be more pleased. I think 8 mm Endura line would be just as suitable as the 10 mm Viper that I bought, at about 30% higher cost for Endura. (The 8mm Endura is 30% higher cost than the 10 mm Viper)

 

[jssailem]

This thread got me to thinking about how we identify the characteristics of line as we attempt to resolve the problems we face.

Thinking line manufactures are probably considering these issues, I found this link on Samson that may help in the search for "The Perfect Line" running rigging.

Elongation and Creep

Recreational Marine: Demystifying Elongation and Creep

samsonrope.com

 

[LakeShark]

Thought I would give an update as I forgot about this thread. I went ahead and purchased Endura Braid for my jib sheets and vang lines. I did my own eye splices and color coded them accordingly for ease of trimming. After a season of sailing, racing, etc. the lines show no signs of wear and the inability of stretch particularly on the Jib has led to much better performance. I use a composite headsail and when we race generally the jib is set to point and the main is constantly hand sheeted. Playing the jib thus far has not gained us much in performance but the potential for the sheet to get away from some of my younger crew is high. So we typically trim to a set point and keep it there for that tack. This set up has worked well so far for our family anyway. This year we are planning to race again in the upcoming C22 Nationals in Arkansas this spring so Ill have to see if they will make any difference in the OD racing.

On a side note I also race Lasers and have the same Endura braid for the main sheet on that and love it. even with the constant hand sheeting it shows no signs of wear and is easy enough on the hand even when very wet.

in the end my choice came down to the Dyneema I could get at a good price and WM had a spring line sale that made it the same as other high end lines. I would certainly recommend the line to others out there who are looking for a more affordable high tech line. In the coming years my halyards will also be changed to this as well once their worn out.

 

[Hayden Watson]

For me personally, I do not worry a great deal about the stretch characteristics of my genoa sheets. Stretch is based on an elongation percentage at a given load. This means that the length of the line under load is a big deal.

Lest look at entry level 3/8" Sta-Set. 2.8% @ 20% of breaking strength of 5100lbs. That comes to 0.028 x 12" = .33" at a load of .20 x 5100 = 1020-lbs. The only time that my genoa sheet is under a high load is when beating. My boat has turning blocks on the stern and when close hauled with my 140% I do not have more than 12' of line under tension. That comes to about 4" of total elongation but that is proportional to the load. On my boat the genny is actively trimmed and if i do not like the way it looks, I call for it to be adjusted so this which will happen every time the wind strength charges even with no elongation. For a jib sheet I choose the line based on its other properties such as being less likely to hockle and how it feels on the hand.
The Halyards is where I invent is a lower stretch line. my main halyard is 56' from headboard to winch. That same line would have 18½" of elongation and the halyard tends to be more of a set and forget line although I try to stay mindful of it for trim and use the Cunningham to adjust.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

For me personally, I do not worry a great deal about the stretch characteristics of my genoa sheets.

For a jib sheet I choose the line based on its other properties such as being less likely to hockle and how it feels on the hand.

I'd go along with that line of reasoning. What are the best choices for resistance to kinking & hockling? I've had failure in XLS and Sta-Set within a single season. For that reason, I've stayed away from the "cruising" rope lines and opted for the lines that are more geared for performance or "racer-cruiser".

 

[Hayden Watson]

I'd go along with that line of reasoning. What are the best choices for resistance to kinking & hockling? I've had failure in XLS and Sta-Set within a single season. For that reason, I've stayed away from the "cruising" rope lines and opted for the lines that are more geared for performance or "racer-cruiser".

When you say "failure" what do you mean. Did the line break under tension? I have never had that happen and I like to sail in strong wind. In a good breeze I often have the sheets trimmed to the point where I am just about out of ability to get any more clicks out of my ST40's with 10" handles.
What size sheets do you use? I use 7/16 which is a nice compromise in hand and strength. It also seems to be the best size for the line gripper on my 34-yr-old ST40. I think my current sheets are Sampson XLS3 which has higher strength and lower elongation than StaSet. It does seem to be less prone to hockling but I do need to keep an eye on the self-tailer because it has a tendency to unwind itself from the grips at higher load. As long as I make sure that the line stays engaged to the stripper, it has never slipped. If I do not watch it, it will unwind until only about 20º of contact and then blow the line. I got them because they were on the mis-cut wall at a very nice price and long enoug for my needs.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

"Failure" may be a little too strong a definition for what I am referencing. I'm not sure what the term is but I've had the annoying occasions where lengths of the core pops out through the cover of the lines, particularly where bowline knots and other knots are under load. I have not had that problem for a long time when I stopped buying Sta Set or XLS. I did buy XLS3 for a few control lines last year and was happy with it. I tried Sta Set X for halyards years ago and was not happy with it's handling properties.

 

[Hayden Watson]

"Failure" may be a little too strong a definition for what I am referencing. I'm not sure what the term is but I've had the annoying occasions where lengths of the core pops out through the cover of the lines, particularly where bowline knots and other knots are under load. ...

Ahh, the dreaded herniated core. Yes, I have had that problem with many different lines when washing them. Did yours happen due to washing or when in use? I have seen this happen on all types of double braid that I have used.

On my lines it does happen most frequently on my jib sheet at the cow’s-hitch knot. This my theory as to what causes it. The cover gets harder over time and because of the UV and dirt damage but the core stays soft as new. At the knot, the cover fibers are stressed and deformed, which due to the hardening, stays there after the knot is untied. This deformation causes a gap to form between a couple of plaits of the cover which the core pops out through just like when you are making a splice.

I try to wash my lines at least every two years so this can be a big problem although the older and stiffer the line the worse it does it. So far, I have been able to save most of the lines that herniated with careful milking of the core back into the cover.

Before washing any line, I make sure that both ends are "core whipped" which has the whipping twine threaded through the cover and core at least four times in addition to the tight whipping around the cover. This way, the core and cover are locked at the same length at both ends. In theory, this means that because the core fit before the hernia, it should still fit after. I also braid the entire length of the line into a loose chain-stich and put it into a "delicates" mesh bag and wash one line only in each load with laundry detergent and fabric softener but no bleach.

My driveway is long enough to stretch all but my very longest line out straight. I tie one end to my streetlamp post and the other end to a line going to a post on the garage and pull a little bit of static tension (20lbs). Then using a pair of clean elk skin work gloves, I milk from each end towards the hernia. So far, I have saved every line although I had to retire my primary jib sheet to the spare last year due to a lack of confidence. It had a hernia about every 5' from the shackle end out about 35'. It is due for replacement this year.