Been reading a book this winter "SAIL POWER" by W. Ross. And I'm learning that it's a good idea to keep records of how your boat handles and sails during all the degrees of angle to the wind and wind velocities. How and where the best sail settings are and so on. Not having a wind indicator, or have ever used one before, I see many boats in my marina have the mast head cup style anemometer. They look so neat spinning, but is the big price difference between these and the hand held ones really worth going the extra $'s? My brother and I do race our 222 O'day on wed evening and enjoy doing so. Doubt if we will ever get to be 100% serious racers, but sure enjoy the local fun group.
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Chuck...
it may be difficult to justify even the least expensive masthead apparent wind and speed indicator (around $400) on a 22 foot boat, but it's worth every penny. A hand unit doesn't indicate the apparent wind angle, is hard to read stuck in your mouth while handing the tiller and a sheet, and will be the first thing to leap overboard when you have to shout "Starboard" in a race crossing situation. But to be competitive, to learn what trim works at what wind angle and speed, to learn what the wind speed is up in clear air not down on the cluttered, turbulent deck, and which tack is faster when close hauled, nothing beats one. Combined with correctly placed tell-tales well read and understood and you will have a strong offensive race weapon
it may be difficult to justify even the least expensive masthead apparent wind and speed indicator (around $400) on a 22 foot boat, but it's worth every penny. A hand unit doesn't indicate the apparent wind angle, is hard to read stuck in your mouth while handing the tiller and a sheet, and will be the first thing to leap overboard when you have to shout "Starboard" in a race crossing situation. But to be competitive, to learn what trim works at what wind angle and speed, to learn what the wind speed is up in clear air not down on the cluttered, turbulent deck, and which tack is faster when close hauled, nothing beats one. Combined with correctly placed tell-tales well read and understood and you will have a strong offensive race weapon
Did without one...
I did without one on the previous two boats and did just fine. Have one on our present boat and like it. Basically I think I would be fine without it but it was part of the electronics package included with the boat. I had learned to read the wind speed based on what was going on around me. Water condition, wind noise in the rigging, etc. I also knew which tack was better based on how the boat handled and speeds I could reach. If you're good at sensing your surroundings then save the money. If you always seem to be wrong about the conditions then go for it. Mike
I did without one on the previous two boats and did just fine. Have one on our present boat and like it. Basically I think I would be fine without it but it was part of the electronics package included with the boat. I had learned to read the wind speed based on what was going on around me. Water condition, wind noise in the rigging, etc. I also knew which tack was better based on how the boat handled and speeds I could reach. If you're good at sensing your surroundings then save the money. If you always seem to be wrong about the conditions then go for it. Mike
recent discussion on CBSS I think
Chuck There is almost no relationship between wind speed and direction in the cockpit vs that up on the mast where it counts. They are okay for gross wind at eye level but it sounds like a hand held unit would be useless for your purpose. To put it differently, most of us don't spend the extra money on a masthead anemometer 'cause we're rolling in money. As Dan said, you need to determine what accurate wind info is worth to you.
Chuck There is almost no relationship between wind speed and direction in the cockpit vs that up on the mast where it counts. They are okay for gross wind at eye level but it sounds like a hand held unit would be useless for your purpose. To put it differently, most of us don't spend the extra money on a masthead anemometer 'cause we're rolling in money. As Dan said, you need to determine what accurate wind info is worth to you.
Height above water
Its my understanding from reading about these masthead units is that the wind at the top of the mast versus the wind at cockpit height can be different enough to make a big difference. I do not have a anemometer on my masthead yet due to the cost of these units, and it has not migrated to the top of my list yet, but it is definitely on the list. Currently I use a handheld unit basically to try to judge early enough when to add a reef. My only other thought would be that on a 22 foot boat is the mast head high enough to warrant the cost versus just using a handheld unit in the cockpit and watching telltales. They are very cool gadgets though aren't they
Its my understanding from reading about these masthead units is that the wind at the top of the mast versus the wind at cockpit height can be different enough to make a big difference. I do not have a anemometer on my masthead yet due to the cost of these units, and it has not migrated to the top of my list yet, but it is definitely on the list. Currently I use a handheld unit basically to try to judge early enough when to add a reef. My only other thought would be that on a 22 foot boat is the mast head high enough to warrant the cost versus just using a handheld unit in the cockpit and watching telltales. They are very cool gadgets though aren't they
For Wednesday night .....
... usually a masthead anemometer will be overkill due to the flukey winds at dusk. The best results will probably come from a simple masthead Windex ... and 'most importantly' a full set of telltales on your sails. A FULL set of tales PLUS a full set of 'steering tales' will get you to maximum speed regardless of what the wind speed. IMHO, "Sail Power" has lots of technical flaws. If you want to race at the 'maximum' suggest you first go to www.arvelgentry.com then look up "magazine articles" then the 'series': Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973: Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973: Sailing to Windward, January 1974: Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974. This is THE definitive source set of articles that ALL others base their use of tell tales .... from the person who 'correctly' explained: "How sails really work", etc. etc. etc. If you follow the usage of tell-tales in those articles ... your boat will be at MAXIMUM speed and in spite of the (normal) wind velocity as sail ***shaping*** will be in real-time and based on the actual differences of wind speed between the water and the top of the mast. If ypu follow those articles (need to be read several times) you will be at max. speed based on CORRECT sail trim and sail SHAPE. Gentry is the one who 'debunked' the slot effect, and most of the other aerodynamically wrong 'theories' stated in most sailing books. Arvel Gentry (reknown aerodynamicist/sailor) was the secret weapon that allowed the USA to dominate the Americas Cup through the 60s, 70s and early 80s. Instead of setting plots of windspeed versus boat speed, simply sail the boat with PERFECT trim and PERFECT sail shape (BIG difference between the two). For sailing in the 'right direction' ... for racing 'TACTICS' one of the best is: "Sailing Smart" by Buddy Melges. It takes much more than sailing fast to win or place high when racing, as racing is a 'game of inches' and this book will show how to continually gain those important inches. Rather than a masthead anemometer instrument ... a better investment for racing is an *accurate* speedo ... one that reads to the nearest 1/10 knot for its ENTIRE scale range. The speedo is used to further optimize the sail trim/shape for the exact conditions at the moment (barberhauling the jib/genoa, etc. etc. etc. for better upwind/pointing, etc.). Some of the best speedos for racing small boats are wireless and dont need any throughhulls, etc. ... better investment than a masthead anemometer. There are some rigging tension tricks that will help ... but try to find a website of folks who actually race the O222 for those specifics. Hope this helps
... usually a masthead anemometer will be overkill due to the flukey winds at dusk. The best results will probably come from a simple masthead Windex ... and 'most importantly' a full set of telltales on your sails. A FULL set of tales PLUS a full set of 'steering tales' will get you to maximum speed regardless of what the wind speed. IMHO, "Sail Power" has lots of technical flaws. If you want to race at the 'maximum' suggest you first go to www.arvelgentry.com then look up "magazine articles" then the 'series': Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973: Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973: Sailing to Windward, January 1974: Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974. This is THE definitive source set of articles that ALL others base their use of tell tales .... from the person who 'correctly' explained: "How sails really work", etc. etc. etc. If you follow the usage of tell-tales in those articles ... your boat will be at MAXIMUM speed and in spite of the (normal) wind velocity as sail ***shaping*** will be in real-time and based on the actual differences of wind speed between the water and the top of the mast. If ypu follow those articles (need to be read several times) you will be at max. speed based on CORRECT sail trim and sail SHAPE. Gentry is the one who 'debunked' the slot effect, and most of the other aerodynamically wrong 'theories' stated in most sailing books. Arvel Gentry (reknown aerodynamicist/sailor) was the secret weapon that allowed the USA to dominate the Americas Cup through the 60s, 70s and early 80s. Instead of setting plots of windspeed versus boat speed, simply sail the boat with PERFECT trim and PERFECT sail shape (BIG difference between the two). For sailing in the 'right direction' ... for racing 'TACTICS' one of the best is: "Sailing Smart" by Buddy Melges. It takes much more than sailing fast to win or place high when racing, as racing is a 'game of inches' and this book will show how to continually gain those important inches. Rather than a masthead anemometer instrument ... a better investment for racing is an *accurate* speedo ... one that reads to the nearest 1/10 knot for its ENTIRE scale range. The speedo is used to further optimize the sail trim/shape for the exact conditions at the moment (barberhauling the jib/genoa, etc. etc. etc. for better upwind/pointing, etc.). Some of the best speedos for racing small boats are wireless and dont need any throughhulls, etc. ... better investment than a masthead anemometer. There are some rigging tension tricks that will help ... but try to find a website of folks who actually race the O222 for those specifics. Hope this helps
Mast head unit and auto pilot
Didnt have either on my last 2 boats, but have both on this on. When in the golf I like setting my sails for wind at about 60* or 70* apparent wind then set the auto pilot and adjust the boats heading to the wind. Great performance and very relaxing. Now that I have them wouldn't have another boat with out both on board.
Didnt have either on my last 2 boats, but have both on this on. When in the golf I like setting my sails for wind at about 60* or 70* apparent wind then set the auto pilot and adjust the boats heading to the wind. Great performance and very relaxing. Now that I have them wouldn't have another boat with out both on board.
Unless you are into serious racing,
I think you would do well just having a Windex vane at the masthead and a hand-held windmeter in the cockpit. The Windex costs about $40 and I use a LaCrosse hand-held anemometer which cost about $30 from Amazon. These two inexpensive devices tell you just about all you really need to know about wind direction and speed.
I think you would do well just having a Windex vane at the masthead and a hand-held windmeter in the cockpit. The Windex costs about $40 and I use a LaCrosse hand-held anemometer which cost about $30 from Amazon. These two inexpensive devices tell you just about all you really need to know about wind direction and speed.
Your comments about "Sail Power"
RichH, thanks for posting some good reference sources for sail trim; I am always on the lookout for this stuff. I have been reading "Sail Power" over the winter and found I liked it a lot. In particular since I sail a boat built the same year the book was published (1975) it was interesting to see a sail training book from the same era. When you say it has lots of "technical flaws" are you referring to flawed content when it was published or is it flawed given that sailing techniques have evolved over the past 33 years?
RichH, thanks for posting some good reference sources for sail trim; I am always on the lookout for this stuff. I have been reading "Sail Power" over the winter and found I liked it a lot. In particular since I sail a boat built the same year the book was published (1975) it was interesting to see a sail training book from the same era. When you say it has lots of "technical flaws" are you referring to flawed content when it was published or is it flawed given that sailing techniques have evolved over the past 33 years?
Hand Held
I don't race so I don't require anything too extravegant, which is why I like my little Skymate hand held anemometer. I use it to check the wind conditions I sail in to get a better feel for which headsail to put out when leaving the slip. The windex tells me the direction of the wind and I also have threads of wool blowing off the shrouds for direction. It is a fairly decent unit at $100.00 and tells me all I need to know and I use it regularly. I find it quite amazing how far off I am just guessing the speed and then checking my guess against the unit, they are quite usefull. I think one would be surprised at just how accurate and usefull they are and much more economical than a mast mount. The one extra benefit I like about my handheld is that I can take it with me on other peoples boats.
I don't race so I don't require anything too extravegant, which is why I like my little Skymate hand held anemometer. I use it to check the wind conditions I sail in to get a better feel for which headsail to put out when leaving the slip. The windex tells me the direction of the wind and I also have threads of wool blowing off the shrouds for direction. It is a fairly decent unit at $100.00 and tells me all I need to know and I use it regularly. I find it quite amazing how far off I am just guessing the speed and then checking my guess against the unit, they are quite usefull. I think one would be surprised at just how accurate and usefull they are and much more economical than a mast mount. The one extra benefit I like about my handheld is that I can take it with me on other peoples boats.
RichH
Great reply! Thanks for the references. Chuck R. On a boat as small as a 22 a masthead wind instrument is not going to help you go fast. Sail trim is the key, and a mast head apparent wind pointer is all you need. You should be able to determine sail size based on the boats handling.
Great reply! Thanks for the references. Chuck R. On a boat as small as a 22 a masthead wind instrument is not going to help you go fast. Sail trim is the key, and a mast head apparent wind pointer is all you need. You should be able to determine sail size based on the boats handling.
Windtronic
Chuck There is only one hand held anemometer worth buying. It is Windtronic. It has cups on the top so you do not have to point it into the wind. It has max wind speed, current wind speed, and average wind speed. It has a 1/4" mounting hole on the bottom. We sail a C-22 and put a mounting screw through the sliding hatch and mount it every time we go out. You can see it great from the helm, and it will read the wind speed on any point of sail. We love it!! It is made in Germany, and the quality it just what you would think it would be from that country. If you google Windtronic you will find it. The cost is around 79.00. If you need more info let me know Dale
Chuck There is only one hand held anemometer worth buying. It is Windtronic. It has cups on the top so you do not have to point it into the wind. It has max wind speed, current wind speed, and average wind speed. It has a 1/4" mounting hole on the bottom. We sail a C-22 and put a mounting screw through the sliding hatch and mount it every time we go out. You can see it great from the helm, and it will read the wind speed on any point of sail. We love it!! It is made in Germany, and the quality it just what you would think it would be from that country. If you google Windtronic you will find it. The cost is around 79.00. If you need more info let me know Dale
Rich...
I would agree with you that a speedo is useful. We use it when racing to validate sail trim and compare it to the GPS's VMG to determine which tack is faster toward the mark, and to determine what sort of tidal current is running when compared to the GPS's SOG. On a small boat, it, a Windex at the masthead, and telltales properly placed will go a long way in race performance cheaply. I found Ross's Sail Power a bit too technical for the average beginner. Buddy's book on racing is much better. Tucker Thompson puts on a darn good racing seminar--try to find something of his on the subject in print on the web.
I would agree with you that a speedo is useful. We use it when racing to validate sail trim and compare it to the GPS's VMG to determine which tack is faster toward the mark, and to determine what sort of tidal current is running when compared to the GPS's SOG. On a small boat, it, a Windex at the masthead, and telltales properly placed will go a long way in race performance cheaply. I found Ross's Sail Power a bit too technical for the average beginner. Buddy's book on racing is much better. Tucker Thompson puts on a darn good racing seminar--try to find something of his on the subject in print on the web.
Sail Power was written ...
before any aerodynamicist (ie.: A.Gentry) explained how sails 'actually' worked ..... NOT the way you learned it in a USA high school, most sailing instructions books, etc. etc. which is TOTALLY WRONG. Even the Wright brothers would totally refute what is commonly believed/taught to be the mechanism of lift on a sail/wing. The "Slot effect" is totally wrong, the airstream on the lee side of the sail doesnt have to 'go faster' (think of a sail with essentially NO THICKNESS). etc, etc. etc. etc. !!!!!!!!!!!!! Lift is simply a function of viscosity (the 'friction characteristics of a fluid' ) and the fluid speed across a 'shape'. Hell, sails 'are' curved flat plates with NO thickness. Like most 'technical/scientific' topics, the stuff taught in most USA highschools remains simply uninformed authoritarian BS (and gives credence of why the US educational system is so very poor for technical/science subjects - ranks at the very bottom in comparison to most other nations). The published work by Arvel Gentry is the 'source' of most modern 'sail' shaping/trimming/setting books. Even the great Marchaj (famous British Aerodynamicist/sailor) whose published works very deeply concentrated on the fluid dynamics and aerodynamics of sailboats, the technical-sailor's "Bible", defers and acknowledges Gentry as the prime source in his later works. Sails and the lift generated by sails can only be explained by very complex 'computational aerodynamics' .... aerodynamics is simply not 'intuitive', hence the apparent confusion. Fortunately the non-aerodynamicist can SEE what is happening and 're-shape' and adjust the sails hence the "airstream flow" by the use of simple 'tell-tales' (a FULL set of Tell Tales or 'gentry-tufts') ... and simply watch an accurate speedo to validate any changes to the shape of the sails. Your sails simply wont be fully 'working' if you dont have a 'full' set of tell-tales (gentry tufts). If you want to win races such 'tufts' are mandatory -IMHO. "How Sails REALLY Work". For a CORRECT technical explanation of 'sails': www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/How_Sails_Really_Work.pdf .... warning this is VERY technical and should be read several or many times if one does not have a 'fluids' background. Read this work SLOWLY. There are other good articles on Gentry's website with respect to the 'correct' usage of telltales: www.arvelgentry.com/tuft.htm which will describe 'separation stalls', etc. etc. and other anomalies that will if ignored severely slow down a sailboat .... fortunately, you can see these effects with the usage of a FULL set of telltales. So, if you want a FAST boat , want to improve your standings in a racing fleet, want to cross oceans in 10% or 15%, etc. LESS time, outrun a major storm, etc. ..... start with www.arvelgentry.com .... all the US Americas Cup boat crews in the 70s and 80s 'memorized' every word that Gentry wrote. ;-) Hope this helps.
before any aerodynamicist (ie.: A.Gentry) explained how sails 'actually' worked ..... NOT the way you learned it in a USA high school, most sailing instructions books, etc. etc. which is TOTALLY WRONG. Even the Wright brothers would totally refute what is commonly believed/taught to be the mechanism of lift on a sail/wing. The "Slot effect" is totally wrong, the airstream on the lee side of the sail doesnt have to 'go faster' (think of a sail with essentially NO THICKNESS). etc, etc. etc. etc. !!!!!!!!!!!!! Lift is simply a function of viscosity (the 'friction characteristics of a fluid' ) and the fluid speed across a 'shape'. Hell, sails 'are' curved flat plates with NO thickness. Like most 'technical/scientific' topics, the stuff taught in most USA highschools remains simply uninformed authoritarian BS (and gives credence of why the US educational system is so very poor for technical/science subjects - ranks at the very bottom in comparison to most other nations). The published work by Arvel Gentry is the 'source' of most modern 'sail' shaping/trimming/setting books. Even the great Marchaj (famous British Aerodynamicist/sailor) whose published works very deeply concentrated on the fluid dynamics and aerodynamics of sailboats, the technical-sailor's "Bible", defers and acknowledges Gentry as the prime source in his later works. Sails and the lift generated by sails can only be explained by very complex 'computational aerodynamics' .... aerodynamics is simply not 'intuitive', hence the apparent confusion. Fortunately the non-aerodynamicist can SEE what is happening and 're-shape' and adjust the sails hence the "airstream flow" by the use of simple 'tell-tales' (a FULL set of Tell Tales or 'gentry-tufts') ... and simply watch an accurate speedo to validate any changes to the shape of the sails. Your sails simply wont be fully 'working' if you dont have a 'full' set of tell-tales (gentry tufts). If you want to win races such 'tufts' are mandatory -IMHO. "How Sails REALLY Work". For a CORRECT technical explanation of 'sails': www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/How_Sails_Really_Work.pdf .... warning this is VERY technical and should be read several or many times if one does not have a 'fluids' background. Read this work SLOWLY. There are other good articles on Gentry's website with respect to the 'correct' usage of telltales: www.arvelgentry.com/tuft.htm which will describe 'separation stalls', etc. etc. and other anomalies that will if ignored severely slow down a sailboat .... fortunately, you can see these effects with the usage of a FULL set of telltales. So, if you want a FAST boat , want to improve your standings in a racing fleet, want to cross oceans in 10% or 15%, etc. LESS time, outrun a major storm, etc. ..... start with www.arvelgentry.com .... all the US Americas Cup boat crews in the 70s and 80s 'memorized' every word that Gentry wrote. ;-) Hope this helps.
Rich...
I had a close friend who's brother had a degree in fluid dynamics from Michigan. I never thought of wind in terms of a "fluid" until I talked with him a number of years ago. I've heard Gentry mentioned in very technical circles, but feel our club-level racing isn't up to that level of understanding. VBG! None of us are going to the America's Cup as anything but spectators!
I had a close friend who's brother had a degree in fluid dynamics from Michigan. I never thought of wind in terms of a "fluid" until I talked with him a number of years ago. I've heard Gentry mentioned in very technical circles, but feel our club-level racing isn't up to that level of understanding. VBG! None of us are going to the America's Cup as anything but spectators!
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