Anchor Riding Sail for B&R rig?

[stuartsw]

Our 2009 Hunter 36 gets hit with a lot of windage swing when at anchor in anything over 5kn. We have dodger and can put up full cockpit enclosure (PNW sailors), but that has not reduced what clearly seems like a need for a riding sail aft. (I'm willing to set 2 anchors in a blow or crowded situation, but not every time we anchor)
How do I rig one with no backstay and (in-mast furling main) no main halyard? Does anyone have experience rigging one using their topping lift? What riding sail are you using, or did you construct one?

 

[Schatzi]

I am using the FinDelta from Banner Bay. It's a little expensive but well made. Works well with the topping lift as long as you don't mind climbing up to disconnect it from your boom and raising the boom later to get the boom back to the correct height. Here is the site.. http://www.bannerbaymarine.com/

 

[chuckwayne]

we made one from Sunbrella-it flies from the topping lift and a line led to the pushpit, with a forward line to the mast at the gooseneck. It reduces, but doesn't stop the hunting. One of the "vee" designs might add more resistance at the stern.

 

[Rick Sylvester]

I'd suggest using your boat's windage

to work for you.

Attach a line 10 to 15 feet out on your anchor rode using a rolling hitch. Bring it back to a midship cleat. Adjust that line so that your boat is 'cocked' to one side just enough so that hull's natural windage at that slight angle keeps it 'pinned' to one side. This will tend to keep a more steady pull on the anchor rode than even a riding sail might.

I'm not saying that riding sails don't work (they do) but I'd sure try this before I spent the money on one.

 

[quadrille38]

to work for you.

Attach a line 10 to 15 feet out on your anchor rode using a rolling hitch. Bring it back to a midship cleat. Adjust that line so that your boat is 'cocked' to one side just enough so that hull's natural windage at that slight angle keeps it 'pinned' to one side. This will tend to keep a more steady pull on the anchor rode than even a riding sail might.

I'm not saying that riding sails don't work (they do) but I'd sure try this before I spent the money on one.

Have a FinDelta from Banner Bay on our 2008 Hunter. No backstay not an issue. Uses topping lift or spare halyard to lift. Works great.

 

[stuartsw]

I am using the FinDelta from Banner Bay. It's a little expensive but well made. Works well with the topping lift as long as you don't mind climbing up to disconnect it from your boom and raising the boom later to get the boom back to the correct height. Here is the site.. http://www.bannerbaymarine.com/

Schatzi, are you using a boom brake at all, or just your mainsheet/traveller to lock the boom? And is the rigid vang then the only upward pressure on our boom, when you rig the sail?

 

[Schatzi]

Not using a boom brake. We lay the boom on the arch/traveler and tighten the sheet lines. The rigid vang, arch, sheet lines keep the boom in place. I marked the topping lift at the cleat on the mast so my wife could tell when the boom was at proper height and marked again for the riding sail. The boom is a little heavy when you lift it to put it back in place, so it needs to be tied off quickly. I wonder if the spare spinnaker halyard could be used so you wouldn't need to deal with the topping lift (rig may get in the way)? Also marked the starboard and port lines off the DeltaFin where they get tied to the arch so I know when it is set properly. It seems to take 50-70% of the swing away. We only use it when we are expecting a little wind or possibly a storm.

 

[stuartsw]

I wonder if the spare spinnaker halyard could be used so you wouldn't need to deal with the topping lift (rig may get in the way)? Also marked the starboard and port lines off the DeltaFin where they get tied to the arch so I know when it is set properly. It seems to take 50-70% of the swing away. We only use it when we are expecting a little wind or possibly a storm.

Thanks, Schatzi, very helpful.
The spin halyard would feed forward, so that does not seem to me a solution for an aft-facing halyard need. I added a clutch aft on the cabin top for my topping lift, so that will help me in rigging. We've experienced our H36 "horsing" at anchor in anything over 10-12kn.

 

[Jeff Bacon]

My 386 sails at anchor like most Hunters, and I dislike it intensly. I do not mind the motion, per se, but it always feels as if the anchor is being worked loose bit by bit each time the boat completes an arc, creating what I call Anchor Creep. Experience has taught me a few things.....

1. The boat actually has 2 distinct motions while sailing at anchor : There is the arc it describes as the boat "sails" from one side to the other. In heavy winds, this arc can approach 90 degrees, and more. Then, within that arc, the boat also yaws from side to side. To clarify the yaw I am describing, picture a rigid pole attached to the boat at the bow, and continuing down to the sea bottom. The bow of the boat could not move with this arrangement, but the stern could swing from side to side. This side to side movement within the larger arc created by "sailing' at anchor comprises the 2 seperate motions.

2. If you are able to snorkle over your anchor and watch the underwater part of your ground tackle you will find that with 50 feet of chain attached to a nylon rode, the boat is not even pulling on the anchor until the wind hits approx 12 to15 MPH. The strain is borne by the chain. In other words, the first 15 MPH is free, as far as the anchor itself is concerned.

3. In my opinion, a riding sail does not reduce the sailing arc or the yaw, but only serves to slow the process down. A decent result in it's own right. There may actually be some elimination of the swing, but not enough to make a whole lot of difference.

4. Still working on this theory, so don't beat me up !! Just as we have apparant wind, I think we can have apparant boat length. Normally the anchor roller extends forward of the waterline of the hull by, in some instances, 3 feet. By dropping a second anchor over the bow so it is just submerged, but not on the bottom, I believe we have created an apparant boat length that is, in this example, 3 feet longer than the actual boat length. Or, more accurately the LWL. Since the boat sails at anchor due to more windage farther forward ( at least, one of the reasons), by creating a longer apparant boat length, the windage is moved aft.

5. if it is the actual motion of the boat that you do not like rather than any concern about Anchor Creep, dropping a second anchor over the bow with enough rode to allow it to drag on the bottom, but not enough to let it hook up, really slows and eliminates the "sailing at anchor" motion quite a bit.

6. A riding sail that is adequate to slow your motion in 15 MPH winds is too big in 20 to 25 MPH and above.

I have never tried dropping a weight / anchor over the stern and dragging it on the bottom because of the proximity to the rudder and prop, but feel that this might be a good way to slow the motion as well.

All of this is based on the fact that I do not mind the motion that sailing at anchor creates, rather, my overrideing concern is for the viability of the anchor set. The Anchor Creep that can be created in winds above normal is something to be avoided.

Jeff

 

[MsEmee]

Thanks Jeff for your analysis. The anchor swing for me on my Hunter 36 is too much for me. Anything over 10kts is a wild ride. My boat swings up to 80 degrees and fast moving as much as 2kts. I have dived my anchor to see what is really happening. With 75' of chain and 150' of rode. I typically anchor in 6-9 feet. I put out all the chain and about 10-20 feet of the rode. I can tell you when anything over 15 knots I pull on the anchor at the 60-80 degree range. Any wind over 18kts, I get anchor creep with a Ronca anchor here in the Florida Keys and Bahamas. I have tried different bridals, midcleat lines to the anchor rode but not a riding sailing as of yet. The only way I have slowed down the swing is with a stern anchor. I am curious as to why a riding sail stops working in over 20-25 kts of wind.

 

[quadrille38]

Our 2008 H38 sails like a banshee on anchor. FinDelta from Banner Bay dramatically improved it. Easy to rig with no back stay. Use topping lift, and two lines that feed from corners of sail down through where the traveler lines run. Easy to rig and the boat stopped doing circles in the anchorage.

 

[stuartsw]

Schatzi, does your experience confirm Jeff Bacon's claim:

6. A riding sail that is adequate to slow your motion in 15 MPH winds is too big in 20 to 25 MPH and above.

??

 

[Schatzi]

We recently used our DeltaFin in a tight anchorage in the C&D canal where we had multiple boats dragging into us and we were rafted up with a H40.5! It was a noticeable decline in movement the moment we set the Riding Sail. The Admiral was happy . You still move but slower and maybe 40-50% compared to not having it up. I have only used it once in heavy winds during a thunder storm and I believe it helped a lot. I would want it up even more in heavy winds. It also helps to reduce chafe on your snubber line to your anchor rode. I would not have wanted all that whipsawing back and forth to add to the drama during a storm. Even though the sail isn't cheap, it is very well made, and a cheap date if you are looking at possible damage to your boat or others. You will need to purchase 3 lengths of line to get it rigged. I would recommend the purchase of the DeltaFin. Next time out, I'm going to try to rig it with the spare spinnaker line (even though it leads forward) and see if I can avoid using the topping lift, as lifting the boom to put the topping lift back on is the only real issue.

 

[robertsapp]

Or you could save yourself some serious coin and try stern anchoring. Personally, I've never tried it, but I have to say I am intrigued. Here's some info I posted in a related thread:

Don Jordon was the inventor of the Jordon Series Dogue and apparantly a big believer in anchoring by the stern. The relevant info is here:

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_14.htm

Here's an excerpt:

"Have you ever tried anchoring from the stem? I anchored the other weekend for an experiment in 20 to 30 knots out in the open. The difference between how our Seraph 25D behaves stem to as opposed to bow to was utterly amazing. Sure we had wave slap and some spray into the cockpit, but she just sat there and pointed into the wind with every shift. By the bow she dances around like a drunken ballerina, sailing off one way, snatching up on the anchor line, turns, and off she goes the other way. The anchor sail on the backstay helped but she still wasn't nearly as composed as when her stem was facing the waves. Mr. Jordan will tell you why this works. And more importantly maybe, why sailing vessels USED to be able to get away with bow anchoring and why modem sloops just can't; without sailing all over the place."