I know some of this will be opinion but that is what I am looking for. I have a Hunter 25 with 4400lb displacement. I will have two anchors. A 20lb CQR and a 16lb Danforth. I will cruise mostly in North Carolina and the Chesapeake Bay. Mostly in Mud or Sand. Maybe the Bahamas,Florida as the limit of my cruising. Maybe give me your years of sailing as to determine your level of knowledge. Thanks.
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Rode
Kenny, I have a Catalina 320 and use 25 feet of chain with 200 FT of 5/8" rode. We anchor at a lot and have yet to drag our danfort. We recently sailed our boat from NY to New Bern and anchored at three to four nights before coming into a marina. Always held .... perhaps blind luck. John s/v Lady K
Kenny, I have a Catalina 320 and use 25 feet of chain with 200 FT of 5/8" rode. We anchor at a lot and have yet to drag our danfort. We recently sailed our boat from NY to New Bern and anchored at three to four nights before coming into a marina. Always held .... perhaps blind luck. John s/v Lady K
Anchor rode
I think 25' if 1/4" chsin is overkill, but better safe than sorry. I use 15' on my h25 abd have never dragged. Regards, Jim.
I think 25' if 1/4" chsin is overkill, but better safe than sorry. I use 15' on my h25 abd have never dragged. Regards, Jim.
All chain is the "deluxe" set-up
I switched to an all chain rode after hearing horror stories about dragging at Block Island. On my C36 I use a 35 lb. Bruce (clone), and carry 125' of 5/16" triple-B galvanized chain. I have a chain gypsie on the electric windlass for ease weighing. I usually lay out 4:1 to 5:1 scope, and ride on a snubber made of 5/8" three strand nylon spliced to a galvanized chain hook. I might occasionally switch to a Danforth (22 lb.) if on a clean sand bottom, but it's really not necessary, as the Bruce holds almost anywhere. You would scale thsi down to 1/4" or even 3/16".
I switched to an all chain rode after hearing horror stories about dragging at Block Island. On my C36 I use a 35 lb. Bruce (clone), and carry 125' of 5/16" triple-B galvanized chain. I have a chain gypsie on the electric windlass for ease weighing. I usually lay out 4:1 to 5:1 scope, and ride on a snubber made of 5/8" three strand nylon spliced to a galvanized chain hook. I might occasionally switch to a Danforth (22 lb.) if on a clean sand bottom, but it's really not necessary, as the Bruce holds almost anywhere. You would scale thsi down to 1/4" or even 3/16".
20' is more than adequate
All chain is only deluxe if one always brings their deck ape along or has a power windlass that never malfunctions (yeah right). And think of all that weight in the bow, sheesh! Not to mention that chain doesn't stretch. Even with a short nylon snubber, chain can significantly increase the shockloads to the anchor and cleats in windy/wavy conditions. But hey, all chain will do a great job of holding together whilst devastating a reef and the increased drag on the bottom will give tons of false confidence in improper anchor sets. It is interesting to note that West Marine offers a rode package for 25'-36' boats. It consists of 15' of 1/4" chain and 200' of 1/2" nylon. Can you imagine the trouble that they'd be in if this recommendation was not adequate for the majority of their customers?!?
All chain is only deluxe if one always brings their deck ape along or has a power windlass that never malfunctions (yeah right). And think of all that weight in the bow, sheesh! Not to mention that chain doesn't stretch. Even with a short nylon snubber, chain can significantly increase the shockloads to the anchor and cleats in windy/wavy conditions. But hey, all chain will do a great job of holding together whilst devastating a reef and the increased drag on the bottom will give tons of false confidence in improper anchor sets. It is interesting to note that West Marine offers a rode package for 25'-36' boats. It consists of 15' of 1/4" chain and 200' of 1/2" nylon. Can you imagine the trouble that they'd be in if this recommendation was not adequate for the majority of their customers?!?
Sounds like sour grapes to me
Hey "poor old sailor," thank you for you thoughtful response on this. I'll try to watch out for the coral reefs up in Buzzards Bay and Vineyard Sound when I'm cruising around this summer. I've used both methods - I have two rodes of 200' of 1/2" threestrand with 20' of chain each as well as the all chain rode. Chain works better. Take a look at the best cruising yachts in the harbors around here and you'll see all chain. Do some research in print and internet as well as observing local practice and learn something about it. Why don't you argue your case from cases rather than attacking my suggestion?
Hey "poor old sailor," thank you for you thoughtful response on this. I'll try to watch out for the coral reefs up in Buzzards Bay and Vineyard Sound when I'm cruising around this summer. I've used both methods - I have two rodes of 200' of 1/2" threestrand with 20' of chain each as well as the all chain rode. Chain works better. Take a look at the best cruising yachts in the harbors around here and you'll see all chain. Do some research in print and internet as well as observing local practice and learn something about it. Why don't you argue your case from cases rather than attacking my suggestion?
Here we go again...
Jviss, first of all, not all reefs are coral. Second, your boat is at the extreme high end of the sizes recommended for the nylon rode you mentioned. The fine print on those recommendations usually says something like "take weight, windage, and weather into consideration when choosing your rode." Perhaps going to the next size up would've served you better. Third, do you dispute the drawbacks I mentioned about all chain rode? You may have a deck ape, bomb-proof windlass, already heavy-ass boat, a sampson post instead of wimpy cleats, and fool-proof anchor sets - but I doubt that all (if any) of these apply to the original poster. I feel that the suggestion of an all chain rode for a 25' boat is ludicrous. KennyH, to answer your question about experience: I've been sailing since the 60's and am a Coast Guard certified Captain. If you'll do some research about appropriate scope, I think you'll find that the other sailor who uses 4:1 might lack a bit...
Jviss, first of all, not all reefs are coral. Second, your boat is at the extreme high end of the sizes recommended for the nylon rode you mentioned. The fine print on those recommendations usually says something like "take weight, windage, and weather into consideration when choosing your rode." Perhaps going to the next size up would've served you better. Third, do you dispute the drawbacks I mentioned about all chain rode? You may have a deck ape, bomb-proof windlass, already heavy-ass boat, a sampson post instead of wimpy cleats, and fool-proof anchor sets - but I doubt that all (if any) of these apply to the original poster. I feel that the suggestion of an all chain rode for a 25' boat is ludicrous. KennyH, to answer your question about experience: I've been sailing since the 60's and am a Coast Guard certified Captain. If you'll do some research about appropriate scope, I think you'll find that the other sailor who uses 4:1 might lack a bit...
Scope
I introduced my comment by qualifying it as the "deluxe" setup, to establish one end of the spectrum. I don't understand why "old sailor" has a problem with this, or why he has to argue about it rather than simply present his view. This kind of stuff is what discourages people from contributing to the discussion. Enough is enough, so I'll resign this thread at this point. For the record, my opinion in summary is that: 1. All chain on any size boat is the best you can do for a rode. The chain is scaled to the boat size, of course. For example, Acco BBB anchor windlass chain is 1.1 lb. max. per foot in 5/16", but only 0.43 lb. max. per foot in 3/16". 2. Abrasion is the worst enemy of an anchor rode. Chain will not abrade on hard bottoms the way rope will. 3. The quality of the anchor set has nothing to do with the type of rode, as far as this discussion is concerned. As long as you have enough chain on the anchor it should set well. 4. The relatively small chain used on these boats is easily hauled by hand if necessary. However, the electric winldass is among the most robust and reliable pieces of gear on the boat, and is useful for other purposes as well, such as kedging if necessary. 5. The rope/chain rodes I have for the C36 are precisely the right size for this boat. It's a fairlly light 36 at 6 tons (empty). A good rule of thumb is 1/8" diameter rope per 9' of boat. The chain lead should be at least half the boat length. More won't hurt. So for a 25, 3/8" diameter rope (which is also the practical minimum for handling), and 15' of chain. Chain size should be 1/2 the rope diameter - so in our case, 3/16" (trade size) chain. Do your own research and decide. Here's a good article that also allows you to make calculation sfor your own ground tackle system: http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm
I introduced my comment by qualifying it as the "deluxe" setup, to establish one end of the spectrum. I don't understand why "old sailor" has a problem with this, or why he has to argue about it rather than simply present his view. This kind of stuff is what discourages people from contributing to the discussion. Enough is enough, so I'll resign this thread at this point. For the record, my opinion in summary is that: 1. All chain on any size boat is the best you can do for a rode. The chain is scaled to the boat size, of course. For example, Acco BBB anchor windlass chain is 1.1 lb. max. per foot in 5/16", but only 0.43 lb. max. per foot in 3/16". 2. Abrasion is the worst enemy of an anchor rode. Chain will not abrade on hard bottoms the way rope will. 3. The quality of the anchor set has nothing to do with the type of rode, as far as this discussion is concerned. As long as you have enough chain on the anchor it should set well. 4. The relatively small chain used on these boats is easily hauled by hand if necessary. However, the electric winldass is among the most robust and reliable pieces of gear on the boat, and is useful for other purposes as well, such as kedging if necessary. 5. The rope/chain rodes I have for the C36 are precisely the right size for this boat. It's a fairlly light 36 at 6 tons (empty). A good rule of thumb is 1/8" diameter rope per 9' of boat. The chain lead should be at least half the boat length. More won't hurt. So for a 25, 3/8" diameter rope (which is also the practical minimum for handling), and 15' of chain. Chain size should be 1/2 the rope diameter - so in our case, 3/16" (trade size) chain. Do your own research and decide. Here's a good article that also allows you to make calculation sfor your own ground tackle system: http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm
The truth about chain
Even though others may deny it, all chain rodes have several big disadvantages, as I've pointed out earlier. But there ARE two advantages of this so-called "deluxe" method: 1) Chain does not chafe. With a nylon rode, one should use 10-20' of chain to protect against bottom hazards and, if anchored for extended periods, chafe protection at the chocks is also necessary. If you are too lazy to guard against chafe then, by all means, use all chain! 2) Weight induced rode catenary gives a more horizontal pull on the anchor. This is why an all chain rode with a ridiculously short scope (4:1) may hold in light to moderate conditions where a similar length of chain/nylon may not. If this is important to you, I'd still suggest a nylon rode - with a sentinel dropped down to achieve the same catenary effect. But as the wind and waves pick up, the weight induced catenary (chain or sentinel) diminishes and there's absolutely no substitute for using proper scope. PS I guess that I'm too old and dunderheaded to understant the difference between an "argument" and "simply presenting one's view". Perhaps a "view" automatically morphs into an "argument" when it doesn't coincide with another's "view".
Even though others may deny it, all chain rodes have several big disadvantages, as I've pointed out earlier. But there ARE two advantages of this so-called "deluxe" method: 1) Chain does not chafe. With a nylon rode, one should use 10-20' of chain to protect against bottom hazards and, if anchored for extended periods, chafe protection at the chocks is also necessary. If you are too lazy to guard against chafe then, by all means, use all chain! 2) Weight induced rode catenary gives a more horizontal pull on the anchor. This is why an all chain rode with a ridiculously short scope (4:1) may hold in light to moderate conditions where a similar length of chain/nylon may not. If this is important to you, I'd still suggest a nylon rode - with a sentinel dropped down to achieve the same catenary effect. But as the wind and waves pick up, the weight induced catenary (chain or sentinel) diminishes and there's absolutely no substitute for using proper scope. PS I guess that I'm too old and dunderheaded to understant the difference between an "argument" and "simply presenting one's view". Perhaps a "view" automatically morphs into an "argument" when it doesn't coincide with another's "view".
Chain Size - theorizing
A recent previous discussion regarding chain vs nylon included an interesting link to a theoretical scientific break down of this age old question. That write-up emphasized the importance of concentrating weight down low near the anchor, rather than up by the boat. It makes great sense and helps explain why combination rodes are so successfully used. The more weight one has concentrated down low equates to better anchor holding power. It is in this light that I am reconsidering the chain size that I use. In the past, I've always used the standard of half of the rode size (i.e. 5/16" chain with 5/8" nylon), but I'm thinking about upping this to the maximum size that will be shackleable* to the appropriately sized anchor. I figure that this would be basically adding the equivalent of a permanent sentinel without adding complexity. What do you all think about that? *limited by anchor's eye size and my desire to not have multiple shackles. PS I am my own deck ape. Grrr
A recent previous discussion regarding chain vs nylon included an interesting link to a theoretical scientific break down of this age old question. That write-up emphasized the importance of concentrating weight down low near the anchor, rather than up by the boat. It makes great sense and helps explain why combination rodes are so successfully used. The more weight one has concentrated down low equates to better anchor holding power. It is in this light that I am reconsidering the chain size that I use. In the past, I've always used the standard of half of the rode size (i.e. 5/16" chain with 5/8" nylon), but I'm thinking about upping this to the maximum size that will be shackleable* to the appropriately sized anchor. I figure that this would be basically adding the equivalent of a permanent sentinel without adding complexity. What do you all think about that? *limited by anchor's eye size and my desire to not have multiple shackles. PS I am my own deck ape. Grrr
Jumping right in
In cruising since 1990 (and I mean seven months a year sailing south and back, not stopping in marinas) I had 50 ft. of chain and 250 ft. nylon for the first 14 years. For the last year I've had all chain (200 ft. 3/8 BBB with 200 ft.of nylon on the end which hopefully I'll never have to use.) All chain wins hands down! If you take a survey of cruisers you'll see that at least 80% now have all chain, quite a difference from 1990 when most boats had a short length of chain and the rest nylon. There is a reason for this - it holds much better and that's what you want when anchoring! Of course I use a long nylon snubber and usually anchor in 10 to 15 ft. so that's all you're lifting at once so it's not that great a weight. If you anchor a lot go all chain, if it's only occasionally 30ft.of chain followed by nylon will do. You might even get away with a Danforth.
In cruising since 1990 (and I mean seven months a year sailing south and back, not stopping in marinas) I had 50 ft. of chain and 250 ft. nylon for the first 14 years. For the last year I've had all chain (200 ft. 3/8 BBB with 200 ft.of nylon on the end which hopefully I'll never have to use.) All chain wins hands down! If you take a survey of cruisers you'll see that at least 80% now have all chain, quite a difference from 1990 when most boats had a short length of chain and the rest nylon. There is a reason for this - it holds much better and that's what you want when anchoring! Of course I use a long nylon snubber and usually anchor in 10 to 15 ft. so that's all you're lifting at once so it's not that great a weight. If you anchor a lot go all chain, if it's only occasionally 30ft.of chain followed by nylon will do. You might even get away with a Danforth.
Windlasses and all chain
"...at least 80% now have all chain..." Though I might dispute the figure, I have seen the trend. The reason that I have heard most frequently is that windlasses do not handle combination rodes as well or as easily as all chain rodes. During a recent delivery to NC, I met a sailor who lost three fingers trying to clear up a windlass jam - he now uses all chain!
"...at least 80% now have all chain..." Though I might dispute the figure, I have seen the trend. The reason that I have heard most frequently is that windlasses do not handle combination rodes as well or as easily as all chain rodes. During a recent delivery to NC, I met a sailor who lost three fingers trying to clear up a windlass jam - he now uses all chain!
Thanks for all the replies
Thanks for all the replies and they came in as I expected. I plan on 25 feet of chain. I used 50 feet of chain on my last boat but it was much larger ie 36 feet and a clipper bow. I first used 15 feet and drug anchor to many times with that small amount. I have seen one boat lost over the years due to all chain rode. It broke three snubbers and the shock of no stretch was to much for the sampson post. This was in a Hurricane in Georgetown Bahamas. The combo of chain and nylon proved to be the ticket in this Hurricane for sure. Winds reached 115 mph. CQR, and Two large Danforths saved my bacon that time.
Thanks for all the replies and they came in as I expected. I plan on 25 feet of chain. I used 50 feet of chain on my last boat but it was much larger ie 36 feet and a clipper bow. I first used 15 feet and drug anchor to many times with that small amount. I have seen one boat lost over the years due to all chain rode. It broke three snubbers and the shock of no stretch was to much for the sampson post. This was in a Hurricane in Georgetown Bahamas. The combo of chain and nylon proved to be the ticket in this Hurricane for sure. Winds reached 115 mph. CQR, and Two large Danforths saved my bacon that time.
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