Allied Titanium?

Sep 29, 2016
74
Lord Nelson Lord Nelson 35 3 Full time cruiser
Anyone ever use allied titanium? I'm currently in a not so great situation with them. Starting to wonder if they are actually a legit company. Sent them my money along with my cranse iron and bobstay chainplate to copy and was told it would take 3 weeks. It's now going on 7 weeks with very little communication. I've been assured it was shipping out "soon" several times.
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,141
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
I'm not familiar with Allied Titanium but did some work with a US Army Chemical Demilitarization facility some years back. We used a lot of Titanium pipe and ALL of it was from Russia :mad:. I was told at the time that it was the only source available. Could have been a $$ issue too. While Allied Titanium says "We manufacture in America" that does not mean their raw materiel doesn't come from somewhere else like Russia or China and you could be the victim of supply chain issues (even before the Ukranian war)
 
Sep 29, 2016
74
Lord Nelson Lord Nelson 35 3 Full time cruiser
I'm not familiar with Allied Titanium but did some work with a US Army Chemical Demilitarization facility some years back. We used a lot of Titanium pipe and ALL of it was from Russia :mad:. I was told at the time that it was the only source available. Could have been a $$ issue too. While Allied Titanium says "We manufacture in America" that does not mean their raw materiel doesn't come from somewhere else like Russia or China and you could be the victim of supply chain issues (even before the Ukranian war)
If that's the case then they aren't being honest about it. In the few times I have been able to talk to someone I've been told it's almost done every time. If that is the case I wish they'd just say so.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
I've never used Allied Titanium. Looking at their website, I'd guess they are a legitimate company just small. My experience with small companies is they sometimes have a difficult time communicating.

Your cranse iron may have some aspects they are having difficulties with sourcing material for, depends on the size and shape. Also, what titanium alloy are they making your parts out of?

If they are trying to source low cost incoming material and did not have the stock size for all your parts on hand, they may well be having difficulty sourcing the material at this point. Sounds like they gave you a price and you paid, so they are in a bind right now - I doubt they would be explaining all that to you.... I'm really just guessing - don't' know, but that would be my best guess....

dj
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Does your canse iron essentially look like this?

canse-iron.png
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Almost but not quite. It has a plate on the back that fits the shape of the bowsprit. Also none of those premade bronze ones were the correct diameter.
I doubt Allied Titanium has the ability to cast titanium. So I'd guess they are trying to figure out how to make it at whatever price they quoted you. It's not very economical to hog that out of a bar of Ti6Al4V (what I'd assume they would be making it out of). So you are left with three potential fabrication methods - casting; welding; 3D printing. It's unlikely there is a 3D print facility with a large enough printer to make that part - at least on a for hire basis. So that's out. So they are left with finding a casting house set up for Ti6Al4V - the job shops I'm aware of have long lead times to get a one-off made - like months. So you are left with fabricating this part with a lot of welding being done.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet they are wishing they'd never taken this job...

Just out of curiosity, why did you go with ti on this part? Why didn't you go with a custom cast bronze replacement? Was there something wrong with the original stainless part you have pictured above?

dj
 
Sep 29, 2016
74
Lord Nelson Lord Nelson 35 3 Full time cruiser
DLj I wouldn't expect that they would be casting it from titanium. I would expect they would be fabricating it out of probably flat bar or plate and welding it up. The original stainless part had some crevice corrosion on it that I just did not trust. Honestly I chose titanium not only because of its properties but because the quote was better than having it cast in bronze.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
DLj I wouldn't expect that they would be casting it from titanium. I would expect they would be fabricating it out of probably flat bar or plate and welding it up. The original stainless part had some crevice corrosion on it that I just did not trust. Honestly I chose titanium not only because of its properties but because the quote was better than having it cast in bronze.
Hahahaha - I'm sticking to my bet above!

My number 1 fabrication choice for that part would be to cast it, fabrication would be a bear! With Ti6Al4V welding is very non-trivial especially as you'd really have to do full penetration welds as this part is structural. Ti6Al4V is a very notch sensitive material. The other option would be CP Ti. Possible to consider using CP Ti instead, but I'm sure they would be having a hard time as they are replicating a part that has an 80 ksi tensile strength and CP Ti is only around 35 ksi. Ti6Al4V puts them north of 125 ksi depending upon fabrication. So that's a easy choice...

My suggestion - be patient.

dj
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Honestly I chose titanium not only because of its properties but because the quote was better than having it cast in bronze.
I'm not sure what the properties are that you feel titanium has that are so special.

I've been noticing recently that in all sorts of social media regarding boats that the promoting of Ti based material seems to have skyrocketed. Ti and it's alloys are a great engineering material, but I've been scratching my head as to why the sudden (within the past few years) augment of this. I listened to the 12 minute blurb on Allied Titanium's home page by Jack Chrysler and the claims being made are just not understandable to me. Let's see, for example he claims Ti is 3 1/2 times stronger than 316 stainless steel. I just can't figure out where that number comes from. He then goes on to talk about how stainless steel fails through crevice corrosion and implies it is coming from the inside of the metal. Wrong. I just can't find a better word for that one, it's just wrong. That 12 minute video felt like the snake oil sellers running around back in the 1900's....

But rather than bash that video, I thought it would be better to talk a bit about titanium, it's advantages and disadvantages. There is no single alloy that is the end all of all alloys. Wouldn't that be nice if such an alloy did exist.

Within the marine environment, titanium and it's common alloys are very corrosion resistant. This is a good thing.

Titanium is available commonly in two types, CP Ti and Ti6Al4V. There are several grades of these but for this discussion they really all perform in a similar fashion in the marine environment.

Titanium is indeed stronger than 316 SS and for sure has a much higher strength to weight ratio. This specific quality I don't really see much of a need in boats with the single exception if you are building the modern absolutely most competitive race boat that you can possibly produce. Then you may wish to be concerned with this aspect. But for a cruising sailboat, I just don't see the benefit. In aerospace, this is a totally different concern which is why these alloys are used extensively in aircraft. The requirements of lowering weight in aircraft is of paramount importance. That's why 84% (more or less) of the worlds production of Ti and it's alloys are consumed by the aerospace industry.

One of the difficulties that Ti6Al4V has is it is a notch sensitive alloy and it performs poorly in any application where there is motion. This combination of properties makes me concerned with the current trend towards greater use of Ti6Al4V in structural applications on boats. But hallelujah for those that are embarking down that road. I look forward to the years that come and how well it all works out. For me, I'll sit back and use Ti and it's alloys only for specific applications on my boat but I'm not jumping on this bandwagon at this point....

dj
 
Sep 29, 2016
74
Lord Nelson Lord Nelson 35 3 Full time cruiser
DJ,
I have personally seen stainless steel that appears to have only minor signs of corrosion on the outside and attempted to sand or grind to sound metal only to find it completely corroded inside. As far as the 2 most common grades, Ti6Al4V or grade 5 should or would be the only of those grades used in a structural application. Ti6Al4V you said yourself is stronger but also it isn't prone to crevice corrosion like stainless is. I have attached 2 pictures that illustrate why I chose not to use stainless. They are both of the same keel bolt. On the outside everything looked fairly normal until the nut was taken off and it was revealed the inside of the bolt was pretty much dust. I would have been just as happy to use bronze it just so happened the titanium quote was more financially attractive.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Likes: jssailem

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
4,400
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
I did not say titanium was not prone to crevice corrosion. In fact crevice corrosion is the corrosion that these alloys will fail through. I did say say that for the marine environment, corrosion is not typically the main concern for titanium alloys (crevice corrosion or any other form of corrosion). And yes, the common Ti alloys are superior to the commonly used stainless steel alloys with respect to corrosion in the marine environment. There are many other stainless steels not used often in the marine environment that are much better than the commonly used austenitics depending upon where they are being used.

Corrosion is not the single mechanism for failure. If it were, then the Ti alloys would certainly be hands down superior. In reality, Ti6Al4V has other failure mechanisms that are not commonly found in the austenitic stainless steels.

The use of Ti6Al4V - the real only commercially available Ti based structural alloy, there are others, but they are obscure - has two aspects that the commonly used stainless steels do not share and that is notch sensitivity and the inability to withstand contact motion.

Additionally, the marine industry has been using the common austenitic stainless steels - most notably 316 (and it's close brother 316L) in less than desirable applications. These have always been known to not be rated for submersed application and yet we use them all the time that way. So of course we are going to find examples where they have failed and blame it on the alloy. Well, if an alloy is used in a way it is not supposed to be used, it will fail.

The description you give above is not an inside-out mechanism as depicted in the video I mentioned. It is an outside-in mechanism. It is an insidious mechanism and difficult to see although to the trained eye not so much. In your above to images, I'm not sure what the left hand image is, but the right hand image looks like a keel bolt with a likely SCC crack showing.

What the aerospace industry does, that we do not do in the marine environment, is frequent inspections. So in your keel bolt example above I'm sure that the nut was never taken off that bolt to inspect the bolt prior to there being a visible concern and then it was found what you've photographed - likely many years after initial service. I wonder if that same corrosion would have occurred if there had been an annual or even a bi or tri annual inspection where the nut was removed and the bolt was inspected. That process in itself likely would have eliminated that failure. The aerospace industry identifies known critical components and points of failure and then establishes an inspection method and frequency where those points are inspected at defined usage intervals. We don't do that with our sailboats. Nor do I propose we do,but I do support that alloy selection be done with greater scrutiny.

dj

p.s. While the Ti6Al4V is stronger than the 316, there are other common stainless steels stronger than the Ti6Al4V. Some a lot stronger.
 
Last edited:
Sep 29, 2016
74
Lord Nelson Lord Nelson 35 3 Full time cruiser
Thought I'd update the post. After waiting 8 weeks the parts came. Allied Titanium's work was absolute garbage. It was all sent back.
20220318_120146.jpg
20220318_120056.jpg
20220318_105843.jpg
20220318_105833.jpg
20220318_105801.jpg
20220318_105751.jpg
20220318_120136.jpg
20220318_120056.jpg
20220318_120146.jpg
 

Tom J

.
Sep 30, 2008
2,325
Catalina 310 Quincy, MA
:yikes: Yikes! I was going to suggest you contact the CIA and ask them to source some titanium from Russia through their shell companies, like they did for Lockheed to build the SR71. But that is a moot point now.
 
  • Like
Likes: jssailem