Advice on engine bed and mounts

Status
Not open for further replies.
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
While trying to align a Yanmar 3GM30 on my recently purchased 1995 Hunter 336, I noticed that several (four) of the lag bolts that secure the engine mounts had no purchase - they just spun in place rather than tightening. I removed the loose bolts and noticed that three had a strong pine smell, which tells me the wood stringer inside the engine bed is probably intact, just reamed out. One had an oily smell, which makes be believe that motor oil or fuel leaked into the bolt hole and softened the wood. My question is how do I fix it? Can in inject epoxy into the holes, and then redrill them? Do I have to cut open the fiberglass beds and remove the wooden stringers and replace them? Or could it be as simple as just using larger lag bolts? The current ones seem a bit smaller than the holes in the engine mounts, and a larger bolt would probably fit. What would you do?
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
If it were mine I would open each place with a hole saw using the existing bolt hole as a pilot. If I found solid wood I would pry out the piece I had cut with the hole saw and replace it with a piece cut with the next larger size saw and set it in epoxy. If I didn't find solid wood i would remove the top of the stringer and dig out the old wood and replace it with black locust and restore the glass top.
 

RAD

.
Jun 3, 2004
2,330
Catalina 30 Bay Shore, N.Y.
I help a Friend with his Catalina 30 and two of the four had this same problem and we bought longer lag bolts and I mixed up a batch of west system epoxy and thicken it with some hardwood saw dust
You might want to flush out the oiled hole with some lacquer thinners
 
Jan 22, 2008
280
Hunter 25_73-83 NORTH POINT MARINA/WINTHROP HA IL
Ross's method is the correct way to do the job. When dealing with a vibrating engine and potential damage to your shaft, transmission and coupler there is no short cut. Do it properly and it will be better than new. Best, Ron
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,114
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Undoubtedly, Ross's advice is the sure way to go. However, for what it's worth, I've had 3+ year success with doing the epoxy down the hole method. This way I avoided having to move the engine to gain access for more invasive surgery.


A few years ago this topic came up on another forum. I was a newbie to boat repair (and still consider myself one), but I gathered my courage and posted the following description of my fix. This pertains to large lag bolts (wood screws with hex heads). It is necessary that the bottom of the hole is still sealed -- or any epoxy injected into the hole will run out the bottom. This also assumes that the bore hole is only stripped, and the wood still is good shape, not rotten. If you do go this route, inspect the result frequently. Put a socket on the bolts from time-to-time to verify the bolts are still tight. If not, then its to plan B.


==========================================


I have a 1980 Cherubini 36. So same vintage as your 1981 37C. My Yanmar 2QM20 is attached to the mounting bed also by stainless steel lag screws. When I bought the boat last year, the surveyor noticed during the sea trial that two of the engine mounts were moving around a bit. (I negotiated a modest repair allowance to cover in case I needed a professional repair.) When I delved into the issue after the purchase, two of the four bolts did cinch down OK. But I could sense that if I gave them some real torque, they would strip. The other two bolts continued to turn with only light torque, so their holes were stripped. The motor mounts holes themselves wouldn't accommodate the next larger diameter bolt. And I didn't think that an extra 1/2 - 1" longer lag bolt would add much extra purchasing power to otherwise stripped holes. Also I didn't feel comfortable drilling deeper. (And in any case, I couldn't get my drill in a position that would drill down vertical into some of the holes without removing the engine.)

As a first go-around, decided to take a shot at doing a repair on my own:

-Cleaned the lag bolts. Dulled the sharp edges of the threads just a bit with a Dremel tool grinding attachment. Then wrapped the bolts tightly with plumber's Teflon tape from tip to hex head, so that no metal was showing. Tape was wrapped in the direction so that when the bolts are tightened, the tape seam stays in place. When this was done, the tape was stretched tightly over the threads, but not torn, and also stretched on to the central core. I also left a wad of Teflon tape hanging past the lag screw tip. Two wraps for good measure. (After I started this solution, I mentioned it at the local chandlery. A couple of people said they had known mechanics who used similar remedies. They also heard that coating the bolts with a solvent resistant wax/grease - brand not remembered - would also prevent epoxy from sticking to the bolts.)

I flushed out the mounting holes with acetone in case oil had worked its way in. - With a syringe to which I attached a small tube that would reach the bottom of the holes, I filled the holes mostly/partially with West Systems epoxy. Had to judge how much to put in because I didn't want it over-flowing out of the hole and around the engine mount.
- With the epoxy still wet, I inserted the bolts in the holes and made the first turns by hand so I could feel that the threads were channeling in the existing hole threads (rather than cross-threading them). Then tightened them all the way down with the socket wrench, but not too tight.
- Epoxy allowed to cure fully.
- The Teflon tape did keep the epoxy from adhering to the bolts. They were easy to unscrew. They came out actually with the Teflon tape still mostly wrapped around the threads. My thought was that the wad of Teflon tape on each bolt tip would leave a void space so that there would be room at the bottom for the bolt to be fully tightened. As already mentioned above, I could not in my case get a drill bit down into the hole to drill it deeper. Another idea would be to grind off say 3/8" from the end of the bolt after it is withdrawn from the hardened epoxy hole. Or maybe just not worry about it.

- Put the bolts back in (caefully not cross-threading) and torqued firmly. They are still holding firm after about 70 hours of motor time.

============================================

(Update: Last time I checked about six months ago, the bolts are still holding firm after 275 hours and 250+ outings).
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Robert:

My advise is to do it once and do it correctly. Contact a pro and see what they suggest. This is not something that you want to cheap out on and then find out you need to do it again (probably when you are selling the boat).
 
Oct 6, 2008
857
Hunter, Island Packet, Catalina, San Juan 26,38,22,23 Kettle Falls, Washington
With the amount of owners suffering the same problem one wonders what is the root problem. Just how good is the wood that is used to anchor these screws. Should these wooden mounts be replaced?
I have no knowledge of the boats cited but the problem is the same. Epoxy won't improve the wood it's put in. It simply offers 1/4" of a better anchor for the bolt. Why wouldn't it do the same but to a larger area in a few years?
Ray
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
Obviously the optimum repair would be to remove the glass on the tops of the beds, somehow remove the existing wooden stringers, and replace them with new wood. But has anyone actually attempted to do that? I'm concerned that I'd find upon cutting open the mounts that the existing wooden stringers, even if saturated or partly decayed, would be epoxied in place, and require a prolonged assault with wood chisels and mallets to remove, probably in small chunks, leaving a splintery, uneven mess. It would then be very hard to get new wood to tightly fit in the resulting void.
 

Blitz

.
Jul 10, 2007
699
Seidelmann 34 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Torque?

Lag bolts are tough to determine if you are tightening them too much. I often thought on other projects that I stripped lag bolts that would have been ok just snugging them up.

So in this mechanical setting, what would be the recommented torque to acheive whether in wood or in a corrected epoxy filled cored hole? What does the forum recommend?:confused:
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,114
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
It occurred to me maybe its not just sailboats that have issues with motor mount atttachment to the boat. What about power boats with larger and a lot more powerful engines? I Googled (Bing'd actually) and found the following link:

http://forums.iboats.com/Boat-Building-Repair/Engine-Mount

Several of the threads within this link address the issue. One of the posters in the threads looks like a moderator and part of his on-line user name is "master shipwright".

Also here's a link to a thread on the Catalina 36 International Association Forum. Lots of different suggestions and situation items that might dictate the method to chose.

http://www.c36ia.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-34.html

Further internet searching is bound to reveal other sites.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Lag bolts are tough to determine if you are tightening them too much. I often thought on other projects that I stripped lag bolts that would have been ok just snugging them up.

So in this mechanical setting, what would be the recommented torque to acheive whether in wood or in a corrected epoxy filled cored hole? What does the forum recommend?:confused:
If you can tighten lag bolts and strip the threads the wood isn't hard enough or the bolts are too short. I have twisted the heads off 3/8 lags in oak with a properly drilled pilot hole. High ring count southern pine will also do that.

To remove a damaged wood core in a stringer I would drill out as much as I could before I got out my chisels. It is no different than cutting a mortice. You will need robust tools and a bit of patience.
 
Dec 30, 2009
680
jeanneau 38 gin fizz sloop Summer- Keyport Yacht Club, Raritan Bay, NJ, Winter Viking Marina Verplanck, NY
Hey all, I just pulled out my engine again so I could repair the shaft and stern tube, and found 3 out of 8 bolts won,t tighten. For now I am going to use an age old carpenter tip, drop in a 1/8" dowl and tighten. As far as torque for a lag bolt in wood, Iuse the one hand method with a 3/8" drive ratchet, hold the ratchet at the head, unless you are a real wuss you shoul;d be able to tighten fine . In the future when I'm lookin for a job I may drill them all out, Hilte systems has sone very good systems with epoxies, and bolt recievers. Red
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
I'm curious about this:

http://www.rotdoctor.com/glass/GLrotrepair.html

The section that discusses repairing engine mount repairs where the wood is inaccessible might be worth a try. Anybody know anything about these products? Apparently they use resins derived from wood products, so they bond to wood better than standard epoxies.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Hey all, I just pulled out my engine again so I could repair the shaft and stern tube, and found 3 out of 8 bolts won,t tighten. For now I am going to use an age old carpenter tip, drop in a 1/8" dowl and tighten. As far as torque for a lag bolt in wood, Iuse the one hand method with a 3/8" drive ratchet, hold the ratchet at the head, unless you are a real wuss you shoul;d be able to tighten fine . In the future when I'm lookin for a job I may drill them all out, Hilte systems has sone very good systems with epoxies, and bolt recievers. Red
Actually there is a better old carpenters trick: cut a hardwood stick as big square as the hole is in diameter and point the end slightly and drive a square peg into a round hole and drill it for your lag screw.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
I just ran a very imperfect test concerning the torque values for lag bolts. I used a 3/8 by 1 1/2 inch long lag with a large washer under the head. I drilled 3/8 inch pilot hole for the unthreaded shank and 9/32 for the threaded portion. The wood is old growth southern yellow pine, tulip poplar and red oak. The pine stripped at 15 foot pounds and the poplar at 20 the red oak held to 40 foot pounds but didn't get any tighter. More engagement would of course result in greater holding but in each case it was enough to dent the wood under the washer.
 
May 28, 2009
764
Hunter 376 Pensacola, FL
That's very cool that you did that. Thanks for the data. I have no idea what Hunter used in their engine beds in the mid '90's, but I did note a piney odor on the bolts. I assumed southern yellow pine, but who knows, it could have been whatever the local Home Depot carried in their lumber section. In any event, I was already planning to yank the engine and replace the mounts when I haul the boat next year (probably in February) so after all the fine advice I've received here and the research I've done, I think I'm going to try the penetrating resin for the holes where the bolts comes out smelling like pine, and do the drill, explore, and plug with new wood the hole that has an oily smell. I'm hoping that will either do the job, or buy me a few years, at which point I hope my fiberglassing skills will have increased to the point where I won't mind tackling a complete ripout and replacement of the engine beds.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
If you explore with a small diameter drill bit you can get a very good indication of the quality of the wood without doing a lot of damage. 1/4 inch square pegs will drive into 1/4 round holes quite nicely. if you point them slightly and dip them in water proof glue the repair will be as good as the original wood.
 

kenn

.
Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
I've never liked engine mounts lagged to wood, especially when your alignment depends on it.

The mechanic I worked for this spring - his preferred solution is to cut 2 steel plates or angles, paint'em, fasten them to the existing wood rails with 5200 and 6 or 8 countersunk #10 screws into wood, then mark and drill/tap the rails for machine bolts for the mounts.

The above requires that you have enough thread on the mount adjustments to accommodate the 1/4" added height of the new plate, otherwise you have to chisel/grind/plane some off the wood rails.
 

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
It depends on the choice of wood. Black locust will break 3/8 inch 2 inch long lag screws before they will strip out. if you are very concerned then fasten 1/2 inch plate to back locust with multiple large screws and drill and tap for machine bolts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.