ADVICE NEEDED: How to replace H23 chain plate bulkhead

[isaksp00]

Yesterday I saw for the first time that my starboard chain plate bulkhead has failed. The chain plate pulled up about half an inch, and the holes through which the bolts go are enlarged as it pulled up, plus the bulkhead itself has cracked somewhat and is angled forward at the top. I obviously don't trust it to hold the main.

The chainplate bulkheads on the H23 are there just for the chainplates - they are not full size area dividers like on larger boats. The also don't appear to be tabbed to the hull with glass fiber. While I have not yet removed the shelf teak trim fiddle that blocks access to the bulkhead piece, and also not the interior liner, it looks like the H23 has molded in ridges forming a channel on the inside hull that the bulkhead fits into, and the bulkhead tapers down over a vertical length of about 2 to 3 ft (had no time to measure yesterday).

Does anyone know how the bulkhead is attached? Is it simply epoxy glued to the inside of this channel? The plywood has evidently rotted and softened from water incursion at the chainplate, so will need total replacement. H23's have no toerail, so I am not sure if the only way is to unstep the mast, or if I can support the stbd side with a halyard attached to something (rail stanchion base?) while working. The idea would be to remove the teak shelf edge, pull the bulkhead wood out, clean the channel as best as possible, and put in replacement wood (probably about 1" marine ply?) - but how to properly (strongly) attach new wood?

I'll worry about prettying it up with veneer, and doing the port side, later.

Ironically, I just rebedded the chainplates with butyl this season - evidently they had been leaking for a while under prev owner.

 

[MrUnix]

There were a couple of different locations for the chain plates on the H23.. maybe you could post a picture so we can see what you got and what damage you are talking about.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[isaksp00]

I finally got my pics...

I had them on my phone, but was not near an area where I could upload them. Here are a few.

 

[navigator97]

It would seem to me that a plywood vaneer was a poor choice by Hunter. if it were me I would want to replace them with a solid hardwood - maybe Oak or something else. Woodworkers on this site could give you a better specific recommendation. I would think that they should be tabbed in with F.G. reinforced epoxy, in multiple layers, to the hull.

 

[isaksp00]

I would be curious to hear opinions on that - say, oak or marine ply or exterior ply. No matter what, I intend to epoxy the upper edge of this, the one that butts the ceiling of the cabin. I did rebed the chainplate with butyl, but it'll likely have some leakage.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

First, the bulkhead does not carry the stress load like a 35 or 40 footer. Use of marine ply glued together and then covered with a laminate is fine. What has happenned over the years, leaks around the chain plate have occured without being addressed and thus the damage. On the 23, I believe it was a plate that went around the chain plate affixed to the deck via four screws but I may be wrong on that one. I cannot remember everything.

First, I would drop the mast and then remove the entire chain plate from the bulkhead. I would then peel off the laminate or veneeer cover and see if the bulkhead is still firm. If so, I would then remove the veneer cover and affix another laminate before taking the whole bulkhead off as it is alot more work. If the bulkhead is delaminating beyond repair, then you will have to remove it. I have used both oak and marine ply in the past.

Once I had someone who brought his boat in who had replaced the bulkhead with balsa and never resealed the chain plate. I could not stop laughing at that one only after he left. His wife later came and got the boat as he was too sheepish to show his face but I never let on for his lack of info on materials but I praised him for trying

crazy dave

 

[isaksp00]

Dave, thanks for the info.

The base plywood is definitely not usable - it has delaminated and has cracked in the center, about where the bolts are. You can sort of see that in the photos. Plus, the holes where the bolts go through the ply are enlarged where the bolts pulled upward. I feel I have to replace the entire bulkhead piece.

I can remove the fiddle edge on the shelf to get at the ply, and figure I can pull and dig out the old wood. How did Hunter attach the wood to the hull at manufacture? If the unit doesn't carry the kind of stress like a 40 footer as you note, maybe I can make a somewhat thickened paste of West epoxy and white filler, maybe a bit less thick than peanut butter, and simply glue it to the hull and to those side pieces that bracket the wood - does anyone know if that is strong enough?

Balsa? Wow. So you are implying that my initial concept of laminating some saltine crackers into a bulkhead would not have worked?

 

[isaksp00]

I measured the piece and it is 3/4 in ply, about 9 in wide at the top, about 24 in tall at the hull, tapering down to no width at the bottom. I peeled back the hull liner and now see it is tabbed in with glass cloth, to about 4 in out along the hull and 2 along the bulkhead.

If I can remove the bad wood and leave the glass tabs I will epoxy a new wood piece into the existing tabs, possibly adding a few through bolts. If I can't get the wood out, I will have to use a grinding wheel to cut the old tabbing off and reglass.

Advice needed:
Does 3/4 exterior grade ply seem enough, given this is inside the cabin? I will glass the top edge in any case to help prevent rot if any water incursion does occur. Tough to find marine grade ply.
If I need to retab, what is the correct type of mat/cloth to use for tabbing?
Any ideas on where to buy the teak veneer to glue onto the ply?

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

If you peel away the carpet, You will find that the bulkhead was fiberglassed into place which you will need to sand carfully the side of the interiour hull with a palm sander to smoothe it out but particuarly where the new bulkhead needs to go back flush against the hull.

once I had someone who brought their old boat in and tried to superglue it into place. Ha!

crazy dave condon

 

[isaksp00]

Thanks, Dave. I decided to use 1" poplar hardwood - actually 3/4 in thickness.

I assume I will have to remove the tabbing entirely and sand the hull as Dave described. Any knowledge on what type of glass cloth to use to redo the tabs?

I'm going to use West System epoxy, as I already have it. I was going to use Elmer's but my bottle dried up

 

[ehm1987]

I have same problem and appreciate he threads. I don't suppose anyone would have a template for this bulkhead.

 

[isaksp00]

I don't have a template, but it is not too hard to make one from the old wood - mine disintegrated pretty thoroughly as I was cutting it out, but I was still able to make a template. Doesn't have to be exact. Measure the depth of the bulkhead at the top edge (mine was 9 inch), at the point where it passes through the shelf (I think mine was 5 in), and the height of it along the hull (about 24 in). I pieced together the broken shards and used it to trace on my wood (since I did this people recommended I should have used marine ply). I actually made mine slightly larger - it doesn't taper down quite as much toward the top. Just make sure the curve accommodates the shelf and shelf fiddle.

I used two layers of 6" glass cloth, but think I will add one more of the 45 deg biased cloth, once I can find some.

Also, drilling the top hole for the bolts is tough after it is installed - I'd place it, clamp the chain plate to the wood when in the correct position, and drill the top hole before you tab it in, then once that plate is bolted to that, drill the lower two holes.

 

[ehm1987]

Thanks. i shouldn't have trouble finding marine plywood here. i had planned oak, and didn't quite know the properties of poplar.
last question--- is the hull side going to be straight, or does it need to curve to match the hull?. i'm afraid that once i dig the wood out i won't be able to tell.

 

[isaksp00]

The hull is a bit curved, but it is gentle. I had to totally destroy the old wood in that area while grinding away the tabbing. I left the hull-side edge of my bulkhead straight, and it only had maybe a 1/4 in or so gap in the center. I mixed epoxy with the white (load bearing) filler from West to a peanut butter consistency and troweled onto the edge of the wood, which pretty much totally sealed the gap, and then filleted in a curved bead on the hull-to-wood seam, sort of like with caulk on a sink. After that hardened, holding the wood firm, I did the cloth layers.

Will it hold the mast under bigger loads forever? Who knows. I have sailed it in moderate conditions (say, 10-12 kt wind) and it did not fail.

 

[Wanderer138]

I had a similar problem years ago but caught it before the plywood was completely destroyed. I suspect Hunter used plywood instead of straight grain wood like oak or poplar because of the resistance to splitting vertically and because the open end of the grain would be facing up, exactly where water would leak through the chainplate seal and cover plate aka the "beauty plate".

No disrepect to Crazy Dave, whose knowledge I've admired for many years but I don't think you have to drop the mast. Slack the shrouds and forestay using the turnbuckles, clip the halyards to the lifeline at the stanchions (one forward and the other aft of the mast) on the side with the affected bulkhead, tension the halyards lightly and you can unbolt the chainplate from the inside.

Try to grind out as much of the affected wood as you can from between the fiberglass tabbing. Make up the replacement bulkhead and brush the upper portion (where the chanplate will be bolted) with unthickened epoxy until it won't absorb any more. Pay special attention to the edges, especially the upper edge. The idea is to saturate the wood so that any water that leaks through in the future has nowhere to go.

Bond the bulkhead into the hull using thickened epoxy. Brush all exposed wood with unthickened epoxy, then tab the bulkhead with glass cloth and more epoxy. Epoxy resin is much stronger than polyester resin so you won't need as much. Besides, most of the tensile strength is in the glass cloth, not the resin.

Set the chainplate in place on the bulkhead, mark the mounting holes then drill oversize holes. Seal the holes with unthickened epoxy then plug them with thickened epoxy. When the epoxy cures, redrill the mounting holes to the right size. Your bulkhead is now completely waterproof and the bolts will bear in a thickened epoxy bushing.

Once that side is done, switch the halyards to the other side and inspect the opposite bulkhead. You may be able to save that one using just epoxy as long as the wood is completely dry. If it's not, a heat gun or blow dryer can help but it may take a while. Good luck.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

To all who know me, I err on the side of safety which is why no one got hurt at my dealership. When you disconnect any shrouds or stays, you have to know what you are doing to secure in place; however, what if a severe storm should come up with hurricane gusts like it did to one customer doing such a repair but lost his mast. I will tell Wanderer to take that mast down. We can agree to disagree but I always will be on the side of safety no matter what anyone says as you can replace a boat but not human suffering or death.

dave condon with no crazy on this issue

 

[isaksp00]

I agree with Dave, even though I did mine and did not drop the mast. I can only use my trailer from the storage yard to the marina's launch ramp as it is not truly road worthy and is not registered. Having their tractor pull it across the road is OK, that's it. To drop the mast I have to haul it, lower the mast (a PITA) and then have it hauled up to the yard, as there is not enough room on the ramp side of low power lines to park it. Then I fix it, and reverse the whole thing.

I would dearly have liked to be able to drop it.

I tied it up along the dock of a property we rent, and used nylon straps with the ratchet clasps to loop around the hull, and tied off the main halyard and also the steel stays to the metal rings on that. I was nervous, and luckily had no bad winds over the few days it took to do this work. The various stays left the mast somewhat loose, so it could sway maybe 6 inches at the top - about like when you raise it with the stays loosened. If you HAVE to, as I felt I did, it is doable but not ideal.