Add Renogy 200Amp Hour batteries to my cart and then...

dlochner · May 4, 2022

From what I have read about Lithium, drop in batteries are not really drop in. There are several issues about charging that need to be addressed, including a buffer battery, and charging at the correct current. So, unless you have done the research about the whole system and have the infrastructure to support Lithium, then I would hesistate to drop that kind of money on batteries, and especially from Renogy as the company does not seem to have a very good reputation.

A bigger question to ask that will guide your decision, is how do you use your boat? There are advantages to lithium for some applications, i.e., extensive cruising away from shore power. However they are an expensive option if your plans don't include lots of time away from the dock and off grid.

Rather than 2 big FLA batteries you might want to consider switching over to 6v Golf Cart batteries. Four GC batteries can provide 460 ah in a much more manageable format than 2 big 4D batteries and probably at a lower total cost.

Drop-In LiFePo4- Be an Educated Consumer

Lead is Dead! (except for start batts) Warning: This article is long and detailed. It may require two reads so the nuances and detail are not missed. You may be wondering why I am saying lead is dead ? The answer to that is simple;

marinehowto.com

What is a Deep Cycle Battery? - Marine How To

Light Cycle vs. Deeper Cycle NOTE: This article deals with FLOODED marine batteries, not AGM or GEL batteries. The Problem: The problem, as I see it, is one of dishonest marketing where multiple battery types wear the same clothes (sticker) and will perform differently when

marinehowto.com

jaysweet · May 4, 2022

I've been doing the same dance, looking at LiFePO4, vs. AGM carbon, vs. AGM, vs. flooded cell. I ruined a Group 27 flooded cell that I bought just 2 years ago, so I'm looking to increase my house bank capacity. I'm pretty sure I ruined it on a 2 week cruise in 2020 through running it down too far: I don't have a battery monitor.

After toying with the idea of LiFePO4, and then downgrading to study AGM, I came across this thread (albeit, rather old), which argues that even AGM batteries are wasted expense unless your electrical system is set up to take advantage of their pluses.

AGM Batteries - Making The Choice

My observations and experiences over the last 23+ years have led me to some thoughts on AGM's and how the purchasing decisions are made, could be made or things that should be considered other than glossy marketing ads... I see a lot of folks buy them based on misguided advice or just simply...

forums.sailboatowners.com

Although this particular thread is talking about AGM vs. flooded, there are many articles which say that LiFePO4 isn't for the faint of heart, and the same issues apply: you apparently need to get everything just right for it to be worth it.

Since I have a tiny, stock alternator on my 2GM20F, I think I've convinced myself that I should wait to upgrade (away from cheap flooded) until I'm ready to do alternator, regulator, solar, and dockside charger all at once to properly accommodate the new fancy batteries. For myself, I think I'll just install a battery monitor, and maybe double the house bank to 2 x 90AH or so. Then make everything fancy later. Probably $300 for batteries, and maybe $230 for a Balmar sg200.

Davidasailor26 · May 4, 2022

sunlover said:
Also, I've had horrible luck with lead batteries as they just don't perform at the cycles that they claim.

That could be your selection of batteries, or it could be your charging system or usage patterns. Wouldn’t want to keep throwing money into more batteries if there are better ways to solve the other issues. Switching to Lithium won’t solve the problem if there are other limitations, and as dlochner pointed out it could make the situation worse.

dlochner · May 4, 2022

jaysweet said:
I've been doing the same dance, looking at LiFePO4, vs. AGM carbon, vs. AGM, vs. flooded cell. I ruined a Group 27 flooded cell that I bought just 2 years ago, so I'm looking to increase my house bank capacity. I'm pretty sure I ruined it on a 2 week cruise in 2020 through running it down too far: I don't have a battery monitor.

After toying with the idea of LiFePO4, and then downgrading to study AGM, I came across this thread (albeit, rather old), which argues that even AGM batteries are wasted expense unless your electrical system is set up to take advantage of their pluses.

AGM Batteries - Making The Choice

My observations and experiences over the last 23+ years have led me to some thoughts on AGM's and how the purchasing decisions are made, could be made or things that should be considered other than glossy marketing ads... I see a lot of folks buy them based on misguided advice or just simply...

forums.sailboatowners.com

Although this particular thread is talking about AGM vs. flooded, there are many articles which say that LiFePO4 isn't for the faint of heart, and the same issues apply: you apparently need to get everything just right for it to be worth it.

Since I have a tiny, stock alternator on my 2GM20F, I think I've convinced myself that I should wait to upgrade (away from cheap flooded) until I'm ready to do alternator, regulator, solar, and dockside charger all at once to properly accommodate the new fancy batteries. For myself, I think I'll just install a battery monitor, and maybe double the house bank to 2 x 90AH or so. Then make everything fancy later. Probably $300 for batteries, and maybe $230 for a Balmar sg200.

Having a good battery monitor is perhaps the most important part of any DC system. This will help prevent over discharging or charging batteries which will lead to premature failure.

I installed the SG200 last summer and I love it, especially with the 618 regulator and Blue Tooth. It is a great system. Although the Wakespeed regulators are a step up from the Balmar 618.

I've been living aboard for about 9 months with 2 Firefly Carbon Foam batteries and a high out put alternator. It has worked well. Haven't used shore power in months.

jaysweet · May 4, 2022

dlochner said:
Having a good battery monitor is perhaps the most important part of any DC system. This will help prevent over discharging or charging batteries which will lead to premature failure.

I installed the SG200 last summer and I love it, especially with the 618 regulator and Blue Tooth. It is a great system. Although the Wakespeed regulators are a step up from the Balmar 618.

I've been living aboard for about 9 months with 2 Firefly Carbon Foam batteries and a high out put alternator. It has worked well. Haven't used shore power in months.

Are the Firefly batteries even available anymore? I've seen indications both ways.

dlochner · May 4, 2022

jaysweet said:
Are the Firefly batteries even available anymore? I've seen indications both ways.

Good question. Ocean Planet Energy was the US distributor until last summer. They stopped because they are a small company and were not able to handle the warrantee issues and supply chain issues with the company. I'm not sure if any other company has stepped up.

There were some changes in company ownership and production moved to India. The change apparently caused some quality control issues. That combined with user issues led to too many problems for OPE.

The more advanced battery technologies are great, however to get the most benefit from them they can not be treated in the same way as good old flooded lead acid batteries. That's true with AGMs, Fireflys, and Lithium. Treat these batteries poorly and they will have a short life.

A quick search shows several companies offering them, fisheries Supply and E-Marine. However, the domain name, fireflyenergy.com is parked at GoDaddy.com.

Benny17441 · May 4, 2022

It is not just the Lithium batteries, you will need to build an electric system around them. Check out on YouTube some of the systems they are installing in RVs composed of batteries, inverters, monitors, solar panels, 120V charger, controller, fuses, wiring and professional installation. It is too costly to make it a DIY project where the warranties might be compromised. How about $10K to $15K sound? A big downside is that you will be tied to that boat for the next 10 years if you want to get your money's worth.

Ralph Johnstone · May 4, 2022

dlochner said:
Having a good battery monitor is perhaps the most important part of any DC system. This will help prevent over discharging or charging batteries which will lead to premature failure.

Words to live by. I still use lead acid batteries but upgraded way back when to a Balmar ARS-5 and a Link 10 battery monitor. Horse and buggy technology from the turn of the century to be sure. However, light years ahead of when I had nothing but my batteries and just took what I got, electrically speaking, which wasn't much.

It seems like every day we hear about people on this site who are still where I was 20 years ago when it comes to batteries. They have no auxilliary equipment to assist in the charging and observation of their batteries but they are willing to go out and spend a fortune on the latest batteries figuring this will solve all their problems.

It makes no sense to install expensive batteries when adding an external regulator and a monitor to manage far cheaper batteries will likely compete with the performance and life expectancy of the most expensive laser controlled, blue tooth capable, nuclear powered batteries on the market. I would also add that a regulator and monitor could be purchased for about the same cost as one of these super batteries.

Maine Sail · May 5, 2022

sunlover said:
My 2x200Ah batteries are showing signs of weakness and I have no idea of their age.

I put two of these: 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth In my shopping cart and then I hesitate. $2000. Is it worth it?

Thoughts?

Read the reviews first. As a Professional electrical business Renogy by a very long shot is the leader in poor quality and poor customer support.

Renogy is rated "Average" with 3.7 / 5 on Trustpilot

Do you agree with Renogy's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 5,797 customers have already said.

www.trustpilot.com

Maine Sail · May 5, 2022

Also, if considering lithium iron phosphate batteries the article below should be prerequisite reading before you pull the plug.

Drop-In LiFePo4- Be an Educated Consumer

Lead is Dead! (except for start batts) Warning: This article is long and detailed. It may require two reads so the nuances and detail are not missed. You may be wondering why I am saying lead is dead ? The answer to that is simple;

marinehowto.com

Hello Below · May 5, 2022

Maine Sail said:
Read the reviews first. As a Professional electrical business Renogy by a very long shot is the leader in poor quality and poor customer support.

Renogy is rated "Average" with 3.7 / 5 on Trustpilot

Do you agree with Renogy's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 5,797 customers have already said.

www.trustpilot.com

Admittedly a slightly below average rating for this rating site; however, it is a fairly small sample size of only 158 reviews. Just to balance this post please also have a look at the 1,000s of reviews from Amazon.com

Amazon.com - Renogy Search

As someone often said: “Your boat, your decision.”

Maine Sail · May 5, 2022

Hello Below said:
Admittedly a slightly below average rating for this rating site; however, it is a fairly small sample size of only 158 reviews. Just to balance this post please also have a look at the 1,000s of reviews from Amazon.com

Amazon.com - Renogy Search

As someone often said: “Your boat, your decision.”

Am I supposed to ignore my own personal experience as a professional Marine electrician and that Renogy has had the highest failure rate of any product we have seen in this industry in over 30 years?Don't get me wrong, before I closed my business we were loving Renogy. It brought us a ton of business Troubleshooting and replacing it.

Ralph Johnstone · May 5, 2022

Hello Below said:
Just to balance this post please also have a look at the 1,000s of reviews from Amazon.com

Perhaps to throw a little light on this comparison between @Maine Sail 's experience and the Amazon review of Renogy LiFePo4 bateries:

1. Amazon's reviews are highly questionable at best. I see that many of their books on perpetual motion machines receive top rating from a large crowd. Right up there with Flat Earth membership cards.

2. Even if the Amazon reviews of Renogy LiFePo4 batteries are to be believed, the raters (for the most part) are quite likely not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Most of them are most likely power boaters (consider %power vs. % sail) and IMO they're not just the dull knives in that drawer, they're bent and mangled as well.

From what I can remember, lithium iron phosphate batteries can withstand more abuse (within limits) than lead batteries. If these reviewers are simply replacing lead with Renogy LiFePo4, THEY'RE GREAT.
"Forget smart alternators, forget monitors, who needs 'em when you got my buddy Renogy down there"

Johann · May 5, 2022

sunlover said:
My 2x200Ah batteries are showing signs of weakness and I have no idea of their age.

I put two of these: 12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth In my shopping cart and then I hesitate. $2000. Is it worth it?

Thoughts?

One problem with Renogy is you have no idea what you’re getting. The battery they’re applying their sticker to today could be different from yesterday. A Will Prowse teardown of a 100ah Renogy showed they were using pouch cells… are they still?

Recently a firmware update to the bluetooth made the app unusable unless you were connected to the internet. How’s that going to work out cruising? It’s fixed now but what’s next?

To the larger point of making the switch, If 400ah of AGM was meeting your needs (when they were healthy), then maybe 200-300ah LFP would be just fine. Seems a little small for an off grid liveaboard though. But, as and off grid liveaboard, LFP is really a good fit. Unless you have huge solar you will be wasting a lot of fuel keeping the Lead healthy.

Look at Kilovault and give these guys in St Pete a shout. They have a lot of experience with LFP and Im sure will give you good advice.

The Yacht Rigger

Empowering Your Marine Adventures

theyachtrigger.com

Hello Below · May 5, 2022

Mainesail, my intent was certainly not to question your experience. Believe you me I am one of your biggest ambassadors. My humble apologies if my post came across that way. I think very highly of you and respect your posts far too much to think otherwise. Mea Culpa.
I had indeed read most of the Trustpilot Renogy reviews and found that in general the vast majority were negative bordering on scathingly bad particularly when commenting on their customer service.
In general, I found the Trustpilot site to be very critical of even some very reputable companies such as Honda (2.1) and Cuisinart (2.0) amongst others.
My overall intent was to give readers a choice for another source of reviews, that being Amazon.com.
Again my apologies.

tfox2069 · May 5, 2022

dlochner said:
Good question. Ocean Planet Energy was the US distributor until last summer. They stopped because they are a small company and were not able to handle the warrantee issues and supply chain issues with the company. I'm not sure if any other company has stepped up.

There were some changes in company ownership and production moved to India. The change apparently caused some quality control issues. That combined with user issues led to too many problems for OPE.

The more advanced battery technologies are great, however to get the most benefit from them they can not be treated in the same way as good old flooded lead acid batteries. That's true with AGMs, Fireflys, and Lithium. Treat these batteries poorly and they will have a short life.

A quick search shows several companies offering them, fisheries Supply and E-Marine. However, the domain name, fireflyenergy.com is parked at GoDaddy.com.

I can share some experience here. i've had 3 of 4 Fireflies die an early death over the last 2 years. Before i put them in I consulted with Mainesail, upgraded my alternator, added a regulator, a BMS, and replaced my shore charger. I very carefully set those batteries up for success, and while my use case is not the best for Fireflies, I did take good care of them.

Nonetheless, 3 were found to have failed and were being replaced under warranty. I say "were", because one was replaced a year ago, but the other two I applied for replacement in Jan 2022 (and had them approved) but Ocean Planet has been waiting for Firefly to actually send replacements. Its been over 4 mos. Ocean Planet appears to have stopped importing Fireflies, so even if you can buy them you likely can't add to/replace them, and good luck with the warranty.

That is NO HIT ON OCEAN PLANET, they've been very communicative and supportive. In the end they offered me an alternative to working through this ridiculous warranty process with Firefly, which I took them up on. I'm thankful for their willingness to work with customers and would work with them anytime.

If you want something similar to Firefly (e.g. the ability to discharge well below 50% and recover), the Victron Super Cycle is something to look at, though they're not carbon foam.