ACR Relay
- Thread starter Ed Schenck
- Start date
Yes that's the one. You can occasionally find them for under $70.00 but don't forget the shipping.
The ACR is a combining relay and thus can supply more current to a second bank than the Echo can. The Echo is limited to 15A & 14.4V and MUST feed FROM the house bank TO the start or reserve bank. The ACR is a two way device and the Echo a one way. They both essentially get to the same point, recharging a start battery they just use different methods of doing so. Both are excellent products that are very reliable.
The Echo shines where you have differing battery voltage requirements eg: Trojan house bank with a 14.8V charge and a Lifeline AGM for starting with a max of 14.4V...
The article below will explain anything you ever wanted to know about ACR/VSR/Combiners:
Making Sense of Automatic Combining Relays - ACR's (LINK)
i think i understand what you just replyed....so if i want to charge my battries with the ALT off the engine both will do the job when ALT is running ...the only dif is that the echo will only let the second/start bank get 15 amps where the ARC will be more robust in that it will let the start bank have more than 15 amps while charging.....and that may be a good thing when the start bank is low for what ever reason....
regards
woody
While they both get the same result in the end there are differences.
The ACR should be installed with the same gauge wiring as the main battery cables and fused at each battery with a fuse such as an ANL.
The Echo Charge because it is 15 amp limited uses smaller wires and standard agc fuses pre- installed.
The Echo Charger is more expensive but when you add the cost of the heavier cables, lugs, and the ANL fuses and holders the price is probably a wash.
If the start battery is only used for starting it is seldom down more than an AH or 2.
The ACR is dual sensing but if all charging - alternator as well as shore charger and solar/wind if you have - is sent to the house bank that isn't a problem.
Either way is a good solution.
The ACR should be installed with the same gauge wiring as the main battery cables and fused at each battery with a fuse such as an ANL.
The Echo Charge because it is 15 amp limited uses smaller wires and standard agc fuses pre- installed.
The Echo Charger is more expensive but when you add the cost of the heavier cables, lugs, and the ANL fuses and holders the price is probably a wash.
If the start battery is only used for starting it is seldom down more than an AH or 2.
The ACR is dual sensing but if all charging - alternator as well as shore charger and solar/wind if you have - is sent to the house bank that isn't a problem.
Either way is a good solution.
There Be Dragons!
Ed,
Why would you wish to ditch your Combiner?
Please see my experiences below:-
Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay - ACR 7160 – Issues
My 'ordinary' combiner contacts became intermittent so I bought a Blue Sea ACR.
There were issues!
° Cycling – When the engine starts or the shore powered charger is switched on the engine battery voltage rises to more than 13.6V and the ACR combines both batteries. If the house battery is low it drags the combined battery voltage to below 12.75v - so the ACR then disconnects. The charger immediately raises the engine battery to above 13.6v again and the ACR comes back on and combines the batteries again. This action of connect and disconnect will repeat continuously until the house battery has enough charge to be above 12.75v. A built in delay prevents the dreaded 'relay chatter' of earlier models but the process still occurs – but now in slow time! Bearing in mind the house battery is mostly not being charged whilst all this is going on it can take some time before it does come on to full charge.
° These conditions occur when the alternator (possibly at low engine rpm) or shore power charger cannot immediately raise the low house battery voltage to above 12.75v. In an attempt to mitigate the above problems Blue Sea recommends feeding the alternator directly to the house bank so the smaller engine battery is less able to drag the larger house bank down. Who would want to do this as, in an emergency, surely the ability to start the engine must rate higher priority than running the domestics?
° After only a short engine run, e.g. when motoring back to the mooring from open water sailing, the house battery will be only partially recharged. The ACR is in 'combine' mode during which time it consumes 0.2 Amps just to keep the two batteries connected. I tie up, lock up and am about to go home when I notice my Link battery monitor showing there is a 0.2 amp steady discharge. This is the ACR still combining even though there is no charging going on. This will continue until the ACR has flattened both batteries down to 12.75 v when the ACR will open and the discharge reduce to .015A. Also the engine battery is now discharging into the house battery – not ideal.
° Despite reassurances that it was only 'surface charge' being burned off, I was unhappy to leave my boat when this was going on and did not want the ACR to partially discharge both my batteries every time I went sailing. Indeed it entirely nullified the purpose of having master switches to be certain that no fire causing currents were possible.
° I have solar panels and was disappointed that the ACR was sapping 0.2 A of my expensive solar panel output whenever the sun shone.
° Also the ACR is a constant drain on engine start battery of 15mA = 11 Ah/month.
° No means is provided for overriding the ACR to use 'Both' batteries for engine starting. Unlike my combiner which does this automatically for every start so I get the worlds best starting. (As supplied my H376 has two separate on/off master switches and doesn't have an "off/1/2/both" switch – and I love it for this).
° I conclude the ACR might be suitable for folk who never anchor off, always moor in marinas and always plug in to shore power before leaving the boat. I like to anchor out for weekends and my mooring is in mid-stream with no shore power.
Accordingly I opened up my ordinary combiner, cleaned the contacts and resealed it with epoxy. I also added a power brick from an old printer and fed it via a diode to the combiner coil so now it comes in whenever I am on shore power so both house and engine batteries get charged. It is on when I need it and not on when I do not. Nothing could be simpler nor easier for other crew to understand.
Now the brand new ACR sits on my garage shelf, unused and unloved.
Ed,
Why would you wish to ditch your Combiner?
Please see my experiences below:-
Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay - ACR 7160 – Issues
My 'ordinary' combiner contacts became intermittent so I bought a Blue Sea ACR.
There were issues!
° Cycling – When the engine starts or the shore powered charger is switched on the engine battery voltage rises to more than 13.6V and the ACR combines both batteries. If the house battery is low it drags the combined battery voltage to below 12.75v - so the ACR then disconnects. The charger immediately raises the engine battery to above 13.6v again and the ACR comes back on and combines the batteries again. This action of connect and disconnect will repeat continuously until the house battery has enough charge to be above 12.75v. A built in delay prevents the dreaded 'relay chatter' of earlier models but the process still occurs – but now in slow time! Bearing in mind the house battery is mostly not being charged whilst all this is going on it can take some time before it does come on to full charge.
° These conditions occur when the alternator (possibly at low engine rpm) or shore power charger cannot immediately raise the low house battery voltage to above 12.75v. In an attempt to mitigate the above problems Blue Sea recommends feeding the alternator directly to the house bank so the smaller engine battery is less able to drag the larger house bank down. Who would want to do this as, in an emergency, surely the ability to start the engine must rate higher priority than running the domestics?
° After only a short engine run, e.g. when motoring back to the mooring from open water sailing, the house battery will be only partially recharged. The ACR is in 'combine' mode during which time it consumes 0.2 Amps just to keep the two batteries connected. I tie up, lock up and am about to go home when I notice my Link battery monitor showing there is a 0.2 amp steady discharge. This is the ACR still combining even though there is no charging going on. This will continue until the ACR has flattened both batteries down to 12.75 v when the ACR will open and the discharge reduce to .015A. Also the engine battery is now discharging into the house battery – not ideal.
° Despite reassurances that it was only 'surface charge' being burned off, I was unhappy to leave my boat when this was going on and did not want the ACR to partially discharge both my batteries every time I went sailing. Indeed it entirely nullified the purpose of having master switches to be certain that no fire causing currents were possible.
° I have solar panels and was disappointed that the ACR was sapping 0.2 A of my expensive solar panel output whenever the sun shone.
° Also the ACR is a constant drain on engine start battery of 15mA = 11 Ah/month.
° No means is provided for overriding the ACR to use 'Both' batteries for engine starting. Unlike my combiner which does this automatically for every start so I get the worlds best starting. (As supplied my H376 has two separate on/off master switches and doesn't have an "off/1/2/both" switch – and I love it for this).
° I conclude the ACR might be suitable for folk who never anchor off, always moor in marinas and always plug in to shore power before leaving the boat. I like to anchor out for weekends and my mooring is in mid-stream with no shore power.
Accordingly I opened up my ordinary combiner, cleaned the contacts and resealed it with epoxy. I also added a power brick from an old printer and fed it via a diode to the combiner coil so now it comes in whenever I am on shore power so both house and engine batteries get charged. It is on when I need it and not on when I do not. Nothing could be simpler nor easier for other crew to understand.
Now the brand new ACR sits on my garage shelf, unused and unloved.
The "Echo" question raises another for me. Do you wire your alternator directly to the house bank? My wiring is as original, alternator to starter to the Common on the battery switch. Which I know can cause diode problems but I have always been careful. But are there any disadvantages going directly to the house batteries?
We were typing at the same time Don. I am afraid my combiner might be toast. My start battery came off the boat at 12.8 volts and the four house batteries around 3.4! The boat was plugged in off and on since it arrived by truck last November. I'll definitely keep the combiner if I can prove it is working. All the batteries are in the garage including two new 6 volt golf carts. I'll bring the combiner home eventually.
Ed, We have been using our Xantrex Echo Charger, the only piece of equipment Xantrex makes worth buying IMO, for two years now with outstanding results. Our alternator is connected directly to the house bank, no loss due to wiring, connections, etc., and the echo charger connects from the house bank to the start battery. Simple, straightforward installation,
http://trawler-beach-house.blogspot.com/2009/02/batteries-and-battery-chargers-for-boat.html . It is a simple and inexpensive solution. Chuck
That why I changed to Echo charger.
15A to the starting bank is more than enough to replenish an engine start sequence. I observed my starter bank takes a lot less than 15A after an engine start.
You want as much as possible going to the house bank when the motor is running. After an overnight, the house back is down a lot more then the starter bank. If you combine them via the ACR, you actually drag down the starter bank. Now if the engine conked out, you have a low starter battery bank, at the time you need it most.
15A to the starting bank is more than enough to replenish an engine start sequence. I observed my starter bank takes a lot less than 15A after an engine start.
You want as much as possible going to the house bank when the motor is running. After an overnight, the house back is down a lot more then the starter bank. If you combine them via the ACR, you actually drag down the starter bank. Now if the engine conked out, you have a low starter battery bank, at the time you need it most.
And just to add, make sure your alternator output (AO) goes DIRECTLY from the alternator to the house bank, not to the C post on the 1-2-B switch.
But are there any disadvantages going directly to the house batteries?
None, Zero, zip, zilch, nada.
In fact, if you DON'T you CAN have problems.
You might be interested in this (ignore the two switch concept proposed by Mark, I don't think it makes any sense and is way too confusing): http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
There are two switch proposals that make sense: the single and simple 1-2-B Option 1, and the 1-2-B and a single On/Off switch, Option 2. Forget Mark's Option 3. It makes me dizzy just thinking about it!!! If I can't figure it out on paper, how can I figure it out on the boat? What could be simpler than a properly wired 1-2-B switch?
Also, remember to add a separate ground wire from the alternator to the engine block if you don't have one already.
But are there any disadvantages going directly to the house batteries?
None, Zero, zip, zilch, nada.
In fact, if you DON'T you CAN have problems.
You might be interested in this (ignore the two switch concept proposed by Mark, I don't think it makes any sense and is way too confusing): http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html
There are two switch proposals that make sense: the single and simple 1-2-B Option 1, and the 1-2-B and a single On/Off switch, Option 2. Forget Mark's Option 3. It makes me dizzy just thinking about it!!! If I can't figure it out on paper, how can I figure it out on the boat? What could be simpler than a properly wired 1-2-B switch?
Also, remember to add a separate ground wire from the alternator to the engine block if you don't have one already.
I prefer the Echo Charge as well. All charging goes direct to the house bank. The start battery will seldom be down more that 1 or 2 AH if it is only used for starting. The house bank always needs the most charging. It is the simplest most reliable system I know of and there are no disadvantages.
This is because it was not wired appropriately. All charging sources should be led directly to the LARGER bank. This is especially true if the larger bank is greater then 2X the start battery. Wiring all charge sources to the house bank eliminates this entirely. I see this often with the Blue Seas DCP switch and DIY's or even pro's who don't re-route the alterntor off the starter post.
The article below will explain anything you ever wanted to know about ACR/VSR/Combiners:
Making Sense of Automatic Combining Relays -ACR's (LINK)
Again all charge sources should be led directly to the house bank, not the smaller starting bank, for these to operate properly in a deep cycled system.
This is why the charge sources should be led directly to the house bank per Blue Seas advice.
Yes they do and it works great.
Why would you not be able to start your engine? Starting your engine removes less than 1 amp hour from a normal battery used for starting and you have many starts available. Many sailors in the US do everything off the house bank anyway so the starter is almost always full.
If wired appropriately the charge sources would have charged it based on what the bank would take and the time you ran the charge source..
If wired appropriately and the house bank had seen the charging it deserves it and the start bank should be at at or darn near equilibrium and virtually no current will be flowing between banks. I can see this on my battery monitor. Even after short runs I rarely if ever see a + current from the start battery flowing into my house bank. If there was, it would drop the starter below 12.75 pretty quick, and disconnect. 12.75 is slightly above 100% state of charge for most batteries so it is disconnecting the banks at slightly above full charge voltage.
It is a surface charge and batteries can't maintain a voltage ABOVE full for very long. I am having a tough time figuring how the relay was going to cause a fire? Do you leave your boat with a charger running? Solar? With your master switch is in the OFF position only the relay is combined until 12.75V and then it opens. A simple on/off switch in the negative lead to the ACR would have eliminated all your concerns.
Again a simple switch solves this.
You have solar and I'd suspect your controller, like many, also has a draw to run it, as do battery monitors, stereo memory, propane sniffers, electronic bilge switches etc.. Wiring these devices to the much larger house bank will give you more Ah's to work with than wiring them to the much smaller starting battery. We have a constant 0.1A draw, which I could care less about, because we have a solar panel. The batteries are back to full from where the alt leaves off after usually two and a half days of solar charging, even with the ACR combined. If I feel the need a simple flip of the switch disconnects the ACR and I lose the 0.17A load when combined. In good sun our panel is capable of 4.7 - 5.0A
Sounds like you have a key activated solenoid. These are also not infallible. Personally I would not want a boat that I could not completely isolate the batteries from one another and/or choose which bank to use for either house or starting or both. I have seen to many cases of catastrophic bank failures and the only way to start was combining a good bank with a bad one.. Had one a few weeks ago and posted about it here. Guy was dead in the water because his only option was "COMBINE" and he combined good with bad and poof, the good battery was also killed.......
We have been on moorings for over 10 years using voltage sensitive relays (ACR's). Not one single issue and much of that time, the first 4-5 years of VSR use, was without any solar charging.
The simple and inexpensive Yandina Combiner on our boat did a five year 24/7 on the hook cruise with only an 80W solar panel and 50A dumb regulated alternator. Dock time was less than 3% over the 24/7/5 years. The boat cruised from Labrador and Newfoundland to South America and up to Alaska with 97% of the time being spent at anchor.
We too anchor out a lot and use a VSR and have never once had a single issue. I have also installed many of these in this same mooring field (over 1200 boats) and still never had a single issue or one fail or cause the issues you describe. The only issues I have ever had were on the older 7600 units that had the adjustable voltages as sometimes DIY's would mess with them and and get them out of whack.. Blue Sea did away with the usaer adjustable pots, which was smart. They, as in, Yandina and Blue Seas ACR's have proven to be one of the most reliable devices I've ever worked with, if installed appropriately. The Echo Charger is also great but different.
After 2800 hours of engine use and many thousands more hours from solar charge combining the Yandina relay on our boat was spotless inside. The contacts were not burned or discolored. That relay is still plugging away to this day.. I accidentally broke the cover on it and replaced it with a Blue Sea ACR because I had one in-stock. I then ordered a new cover from Yandina, they sent if free of charge even when I insisted on paying, and installed the Yandina on my brothers boat.
I use a switch on our ACR so I don't need to charge the start battery when I don't want to but the majority of the time it is on.
I will gladly take it off your hands and pay for shipping..
Almost Dead Start Battery
Main Sail,
Recently I had an ACR with Blue Sea battery switch (kit) installed with all charging run directly to the house bank. The house bank is 4 golf carts. This worked fine all summer when I was mostly at anchor and shore charging (at dock) about once to twice per week. At anchor, I used a Honda 2000i running through the shore charger to keep from running the bank (hoouse) too low. I have a Xantrex 40 amp (3 bank capable) shore charger that the tech disconnected from the start bank. When the boat was left at dock for over one month with the shore charger on, I came back to the boat and found an almost dead house battery (brand new battery a few months ago). Any ideas on what is wrong??
In the meantime, I have reconnected the shore charger outlet to the start battery and it is now at full charge.
Thanks,
Tom
Main Sail,
Recently I had an ACR with Blue Sea battery switch (kit) installed with all charging run directly to the house bank. The house bank is 4 golf carts. This worked fine all summer when I was mostly at anchor and shore charging (at dock) about once to twice per week. At anchor, I used a Honda 2000i running through the shore charger to keep from running the bank (hoouse) too low. I have a Xantrex 40 amp (3 bank capable) shore charger that the tech disconnected from the start bank. When the boat was left at dock for over one month with the shore charger on, I came back to the boat and found an almost dead house battery (brand new battery a few months ago). Any ideas on what is wrong??
In the meantime, I have reconnected the shore charger outlet to the start battery and it is now at full charge.
Thanks,
Tom
Mistake in First Post
Sorry, the dead battery was the start battery, not the house as I first stated.
Tom
Sorry, the dead battery was the start battery, not the house as I first stated.
Tom
Sounds like a battery that may be getting short on life? A couple months of self discharge should have still left it with some charge unless you have a phantom/parasitic load connected to it, BUT, it should have still been seeing a charge if there was charging voltage present..
If you have an older model ACR, like the 7600 model, more rectangular looking, they only "sense" the voltage at the "A" terminal, which should be your house bank. If the house bank is wired to the "B" side then the relay will never combine and charge the start battery.
A single output charger, wired to the house bank, will keep your start bank battery charged, provided it is wired correctly..