I received a response from Frank Butler (via the dealer) to my inquiry about the subject problem. He sent a letter wherein his response was: 1. I'm probably not calibrating correctly. 2. Its (get this)"not a widespread problem." Oh, really? He should read this forum (Catalina's own). Seems like essentially a head in the sand response from Catalina. I had expected better. Blair Dehuff Catalina 350 #116
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Charterer
C350, Ah! the New Boat Woes.................
Blair If the only thing that you C350 guys can complain about is the poor operation of a holding tank monitor, then you're missing the point of buying a great boat. I have been interested in reading the other posts in response to the question about the new 350, and they all seem pretty good (the others may want to insulate their iceboxes & weatherstrip lids). Gee, do you remember when they didn't HAVE holding tanks? You must also remember when they put the tanks in with out making it an extra cost. And then the next 20 years or so when, gee, owners would figure out how full they were by, gosh, counting the strokes on the head pump. And then the environmentalists who would almost make it impossible for you to even take your diesel driven boat out on Lake Tahoe. Are we getting close? Have you tried to talk on the phone to anyone at Catalina yachts or are you just venting emails and indirect letters from Frank to your dealer? Have you read what your dealer sent the factory? As you say: "Oh, really? He should read this forum (Catalina's own)." Gee, if you read the fine print on this website, IT HAS NOTHING to do with Catalina Yachts. Pull your head out of your head, either go fix the problem, or stop complaining about it, or do something useful instead of complaining about .0001% of a great boat and a pretty darn good boat manufacturer. Sorry for the rant, but it sure seems to me that if that's the ONLY problem you have, it sure beats buying problems that other people have talked about with new, just out of the mold, boats. It ain't a car. Boats are NOT yet at least commodities, and I sure hope they don't become one. I do understand, you paid a $1+K bit for a new boat, and maybe shoud expect more. But more of what? Do you seriously expect perfection with all the subsystems that boat manufacturers essentially "assemble?" And, yes, it's under warranty. How'd you do with your dealer? Suppose he is more interested in selling new boats than listening to your tank's measurements woes? Do you have tank gauges on your water tanks? Do they work? It's a boat. Fix it, work it out without complaining about your inability to get "recourse," deal with the sub-vendor directly, or learn to live with it. And, of course, make sure you bed your chainplates, they didn't do that too well at the factory. (It never rains in Southern California........) Ta
Blair If the only thing that you C350 guys can complain about is the poor operation of a holding tank monitor, then you're missing the point of buying a great boat. I have been interested in reading the other posts in response to the question about the new 350, and they all seem pretty good (the others may want to insulate their iceboxes & weatherstrip lids). Gee, do you remember when they didn't HAVE holding tanks? You must also remember when they put the tanks in with out making it an extra cost. And then the next 20 years or so when, gee, owners would figure out how full they were by, gosh, counting the strokes on the head pump. And then the environmentalists who would almost make it impossible for you to even take your diesel driven boat out on Lake Tahoe. Are we getting close? Have you tried to talk on the phone to anyone at Catalina yachts or are you just venting emails and indirect letters from Frank to your dealer? Have you read what your dealer sent the factory? As you say: "Oh, really? He should read this forum (Catalina's own)." Gee, if you read the fine print on this website, IT HAS NOTHING to do with Catalina Yachts. Pull your head out of your head, either go fix the problem, or stop complaining about it, or do something useful instead of complaining about .0001% of a great boat and a pretty darn good boat manufacturer. Sorry for the rant, but it sure seems to me that if that's the ONLY problem you have, it sure beats buying problems that other people have talked about with new, just out of the mold, boats. It ain't a car. Boats are NOT yet at least commodities, and I sure hope they don't become one. I do understand, you paid a $1+K bit for a new boat, and maybe shoud expect more. But more of what? Do you seriously expect perfection with all the subsystems that boat manufacturers essentially "assemble?" And, yes, it's under warranty. How'd you do with your dealer? Suppose he is more interested in selling new boats than listening to your tank's measurements woes? Do you have tank gauges on your water tanks? Do they work? It's a boat. Fix it, work it out without complaining about your inability to get "recourse," deal with the sub-vendor directly, or learn to live with it. And, of course, make sure you bed your chainplates, they didn't do that too well at the factory. (It never rains in Southern California........) Ta
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Texas Gal
Potty Talk
When we got our new 350 we signed up with a service to come to our slip and do the pumpouts for us--at a reasonable price considering how disgusting I find pumpouts. They sent us a formula to calculate how soon the tank would fill up--based on # of people on board,average amount of water per flush, tank volume etc. It was really amazing how quick a tank could fill up with a family on board. Based on those calculations, etc I do believe that our holding tank gauge is fairly accurate. Plus, factoring in the corrosiveness of urine and the Texas heat, I don't think I really want that stuff in my holding tank any longer than it has to be.
When we got our new 350 we signed up with a service to come to our slip and do the pumpouts for us--at a reasonable price considering how disgusting I find pumpouts. They sent us a formula to calculate how soon the tank would fill up--based on # of people on board,average amount of water per flush, tank volume etc. It was really amazing how quick a tank could fill up with a family on board. Based on those calculations, etc I do believe that our holding tank gauge is fairly accurate. Plus, factoring in the corrosiveness of urine and the Texas heat, I don't think I really want that stuff in my holding tank any longer than it has to be.
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Tim
Sensing Strips
I was taking a look at the Accu-gauge sensor strips that are installed on the side of my holding tank - the other day when I did my "knock-knock" remaining capacity calculation. I know that the tank is not square and does not fill in a uniform manner. I suspect that the accu-gauge sensors would work much better on a tank that fills/empties uniformly from top to bottom - a square or rectangular tank. Like our water tanks. I don't understand the theory that the accu-gauge system uses to sense the liquid level, but I wonder if installing the sensing strips in more of a "V" - instead of parallel - might compensate for the non-uniform fill/empty nature of the tank. Maybe it would be an inverted "V"? Just some ramblings from a very happy C350 owner. Knock-Knock. Who's there? Pump Out. Pump Out Who?. Pump Out Your Tank when you think it's getting close. Tim Brogan "April IV" C350 #68 Seattle
I was taking a look at the Accu-gauge sensor strips that are installed on the side of my holding tank - the other day when I did my "knock-knock" remaining capacity calculation. I know that the tank is not square and does not fill in a uniform manner. I suspect that the accu-gauge sensors would work much better on a tank that fills/empties uniformly from top to bottom - a square or rectangular tank. Like our water tanks. I don't understand the theory that the accu-gauge system uses to sense the liquid level, but I wonder if installing the sensing strips in more of a "V" - instead of parallel - might compensate for the non-uniform fill/empty nature of the tank. Maybe it would be an inverted "V"? Just some ramblings from a very happy C350 owner. Knock-Knock. Who's there? Pump Out. Pump Out Who?. Pump Out Your Tank when you think it's getting close. Tim Brogan "April IV" C350 #68 Seattle
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RonD
Been down this path before about six months ago
Two parts to this post -- Theory & Expectation Regarding the theory behind the Accuguage sensing strips, they appear to be part of an electrical capacitive bridge. The amount of "capacitance" is a function of plate area and the dialectric (insulator) inbetween. The dialectric includes the tank's plastic shell & the fluid inside. The amount of fluid (the level) between (behind) those plates affects the change in capacitance, hence the readout. You calibrate by ajusting the bridge balance between "full" and "empty" fluid levels. Changing the alignmment of the strips from the way accuguage tells you how to mount them will probably throw the whole thing way off. You'd unlikely ever get a decent calibration, if any at all. Regarding your "accuracy" concern, I think you need to adjust your expectations. The purpose of such a guage in a boat is to give you a qualitative warning when the fluid level approaches an action point, NOT to give you a precise quantitative measure of content. In a modern car, you don't need to monitor precise oil pressure, just know when it's below a safe level -- hence the "idiot light" -- sort of the same idea. Unfortunately, marketing demands sometime overrides engineering utility, and you get unecessary guages. On a water tank, you want to get a good calibration on when you approch a minimum desired level; on a holding tank, when you approach a maximum desired level. The "action" is to either add water or pump out the tank, respectively. Suggestion: To calibrate a holding tank, get it pumped as empty as possible to establish the "empty" end of the scale. Fill a 1 gallon jug with water, pour it into the toilet and pump it (dry-bowl setting) into the tank. Repeat until you've filled the holding tank to about 100% capacity (if the pump suddenly gets back-pressure, you are there -- STOP pumping). Calibrate to the "full" end of the scale. Get the tank pumped out again (your marina or harbormaster is going to love you!) & recheck the "empty" calibration. Repeat if necessary. Then. determine what your fullness action point should be (e.g., 80% capacity) and fill the tank to that level. Mark the guage setting. You only need to get into a "take action" mode when the guage gets to around that level. Good luck, --RonD
Two parts to this post -- Theory & Expectation Regarding the theory behind the Accuguage sensing strips, they appear to be part of an electrical capacitive bridge. The amount of "capacitance" is a function of plate area and the dialectric (insulator) inbetween. The dialectric includes the tank's plastic shell & the fluid inside. The amount of fluid (the level) between (behind) those plates affects the change in capacitance, hence the readout. You calibrate by ajusting the bridge balance between "full" and "empty" fluid levels. Changing the alignmment of the strips from the way accuguage tells you how to mount them will probably throw the whole thing way off. You'd unlikely ever get a decent calibration, if any at all. Regarding your "accuracy" concern, I think you need to adjust your expectations. The purpose of such a guage in a boat is to give you a qualitative warning when the fluid level approaches an action point, NOT to give you a precise quantitative measure of content. In a modern car, you don't need to monitor precise oil pressure, just know when it's below a safe level -- hence the "idiot light" -- sort of the same idea. Unfortunately, marketing demands sometime overrides engineering utility, and you get unecessary guages. On a water tank, you want to get a good calibration on when you approch a minimum desired level; on a holding tank, when you approach a maximum desired level. The "action" is to either add water or pump out the tank, respectively. Suggestion: To calibrate a holding tank, get it pumped as empty as possible to establish the "empty" end of the scale. Fill a 1 gallon jug with water, pour it into the toilet and pump it (dry-bowl setting) into the tank. Repeat until you've filled the holding tank to about 100% capacity (if the pump suddenly gets back-pressure, you are there -- STOP pumping). Calibrate to the "full" end of the scale. Get the tank pumped out again (your marina or harbormaster is going to love you!) & recheck the "empty" calibration. Repeat if necessary. Then. determine what your fullness action point should be (e.g., 80% capacity) and fill the tank to that level. Mark the guage setting. You only need to get into a "take action" mode when the guage gets to around that level. Good luck, --RonD
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Blair Dehuff
Ranting
Dear "Charterer" Well, you certainly get some interesting perspectives in this forum. I initiated a post sometime ago regarding the waste tank monitor, which did not seem to work. I therefore found that there were others who participate in this forum who had the same problem. I received some good responses, thanks to all. I also sent an email to my dealer who forwarded it to Frank Butler for reply. His reply was that I am not calibrating correctly, notwithstanding following Snake River's (the manufacturer) calibration and diagnostic instructions to the letter several times. My monitor indicates the tank is almost full when the tap test clearly inicates the tank is only one third full. After that, I'm guessing. Do I remember when there were no waste tank monitors? Absolutely. And, we still don't seem to have one (which works)on a brand new boat. So, it might as well be the "good old days" again, when there were no waste tank monitors. A semi-transparent tank would be a lot better. Catalina is a fairly innovative boat manufacturer. They design new features into their boats, which you would expect to work properly. If they don't work, you need to let Catalina know about it with customer feed back. Otherwise, they don't know there is a problem. This is not my first new Catalina. Probably, not my last either. Obviously, I'm generally a happy customer. This does not mean I have to accept defective design or equipment without complaint, no matter how great the boat is. And, it is certainly not the only problem I have experienced with my new C350 (e.g. some very poor fiberglass work, failed electronics, drive shaft problems, etc.) all of which I have either fixed myself, or been able to get Catalina take care of under warranty. However, when you can't get Catalina to resolve a problem and you are not able to fix it yourself, the next best alternative is to communicate with other Catalina owners to see if you share a common problem, and find out what others have been able to do about it (if anything). Sorry that the tenor and tone of your post seems to completely miss the point. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
Dear "Charterer" Well, you certainly get some interesting perspectives in this forum. I initiated a post sometime ago regarding the waste tank monitor, which did not seem to work. I therefore found that there were others who participate in this forum who had the same problem. I received some good responses, thanks to all. I also sent an email to my dealer who forwarded it to Frank Butler for reply. His reply was that I am not calibrating correctly, notwithstanding following Snake River's (the manufacturer) calibration and diagnostic instructions to the letter several times. My monitor indicates the tank is almost full when the tap test clearly inicates the tank is only one third full. After that, I'm guessing. Do I remember when there were no waste tank monitors? Absolutely. And, we still don't seem to have one (which works)on a brand new boat. So, it might as well be the "good old days" again, when there were no waste tank monitors. A semi-transparent tank would be a lot better. Catalina is a fairly innovative boat manufacturer. They design new features into their boats, which you would expect to work properly. If they don't work, you need to let Catalina know about it with customer feed back. Otherwise, they don't know there is a problem. This is not my first new Catalina. Probably, not my last either. Obviously, I'm generally a happy customer. This does not mean I have to accept defective design or equipment without complaint, no matter how great the boat is. And, it is certainly not the only problem I have experienced with my new C350 (e.g. some very poor fiberglass work, failed electronics, drive shaft problems, etc.) all of which I have either fixed myself, or been able to get Catalina take care of under warranty. However, when you can't get Catalina to resolve a problem and you are not able to fix it yourself, the next best alternative is to communicate with other Catalina owners to see if you share a common problem, and find out what others have been able to do about it (if anything). Sorry that the tenor and tone of your post seems to completely miss the point. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
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Trevor - SailboatOwners.com
Snake River
Hi Blair et all - As the service manager for several yacht lines that have the Snake River gauges installed, I can say that the manufacturer does a great job standing by and troubleshooting their products. A recent memo from a boat manufacturer suggested contacting Mr. Dave Davis at Snake River at 208-233-7290 or email at dtdavis@snake-river.org. Best, Trevor
Hi Blair et all - As the service manager for several yacht lines that have the Snake River gauges installed, I can say that the manufacturer does a great job standing by and troubleshooting their products. A recent memo from a boat manufacturer suggested contacting Mr. Dave Davis at Snake River at 208-233-7290 or email at dtdavis@snake-river.org. Best, Trevor
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Blair Dehuff
Snake River
Trevor, Thanks for the info. I'll contact him. Snake River's sensors are probably working according to specification. From what I've read in this forum the problem seems to be more of a tank configuration issue than a sensor issue. Catalina probably designed the waste tank in a shape which would maximize the capacity vis-a-vis the available space to install it. Its mounted vertically on the hull behind the head. They probably could have installed a tank which would fill in a linear manner but smaller. There's always trade-offs. Most people would rather have the larger holding tank in relation to the available space. From a practical standpoint Catalina did a good job of designing a tank which would hold 18-22 gallons given the space available. However, I will ask Snake River if moving the sensors will help. At least one other contributor to this forum does not believe this will do any good. Thanks again. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
Trevor, Thanks for the info. I'll contact him. Snake River's sensors are probably working according to specification. From what I've read in this forum the problem seems to be more of a tank configuration issue than a sensor issue. Catalina probably designed the waste tank in a shape which would maximize the capacity vis-a-vis the available space to install it. Its mounted vertically on the hull behind the head. They probably could have installed a tank which would fill in a linear manner but smaller. There's always trade-offs. Most people would rather have the larger holding tank in relation to the available space. From a practical standpoint Catalina did a good job of designing a tank which would hold 18-22 gallons given the space available. However, I will ask Snake River if moving the sensors will help. At least one other contributor to this forum does not believe this will do any good. Thanks again. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
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Charterer
Thank You, Blair
Blair Your response, entitled "Rant," was a very thoughtful and interesting reply. Thank you. You made us much more aware of your concerns and how you've been able, or unable, to address the concerns that the issues on your boat force you to address, in a comprehensive manner. It appears that you have made every effort to reconcile the problems, and have wisely chosen to elicit help from this resource. I wish you all the best of luck in getting the "gremlins" out of your yacht, and Fair Winds always. I find it so interesting that some of those who find so much fault with Catalina Yachts are those who continue to choose to purchase new ones. I agree that feedback is very important and useful. Seems to me that feedback saying "Wish we had a tank monitor" may have gone haywire, given your, and others', real problems. No one expects you to have to be happy with "problems," and you seem to have resolved them in a satisfactory manner. That's good to hear. The innovations often come with teething pains. Kinda like your concerns about the "unpublished" changes to the Hull #1 brochure that got you an unacceptable TV mounting, and your earlier Acu Gage post. We HAVE been reading them. "What were they thinking?," has to be reconciled with the small print saying "we reserve the right to make changes..." Glad you've worked them out. As someone once said, perhaps we should copy these posts to Frank, since he doesn't run this website. I agree that "to accept defective design or equipment without complaint, no matter how great the boat is," is a reasonable idea. Changes DO happen between the pictures and the real boat, as you've learned. I hope that you've been able to get enough input from this resource. Please let us know how it goes for you and others with Snake River. It is, all told, interesting that the waste tank isn't flat, nor is it clear. BTW, you should be getting 1/2 gallon per hour on your engine, so when the fuel gauge goes out, you can keep track of your next fill up by tracking the engine hours. Thanks again, and keep posting your concerns for all of us to understand. Ta
Blair Your response, entitled "Rant," was a very thoughtful and interesting reply. Thank you. You made us much more aware of your concerns and how you've been able, or unable, to address the concerns that the issues on your boat force you to address, in a comprehensive manner. It appears that you have made every effort to reconcile the problems, and have wisely chosen to elicit help from this resource. I wish you all the best of luck in getting the "gremlins" out of your yacht, and Fair Winds always. I find it so interesting that some of those who find so much fault with Catalina Yachts are those who continue to choose to purchase new ones. I agree that feedback is very important and useful. Seems to me that feedback saying "Wish we had a tank monitor" may have gone haywire, given your, and others', real problems. No one expects you to have to be happy with "problems," and you seem to have resolved them in a satisfactory manner. That's good to hear. The innovations often come with teething pains. Kinda like your concerns about the "unpublished" changes to the Hull #1 brochure that got you an unacceptable TV mounting, and your earlier Acu Gage post. We HAVE been reading them. "What were they thinking?," has to be reconciled with the small print saying "we reserve the right to make changes..." Glad you've worked them out. As someone once said, perhaps we should copy these posts to Frank, since he doesn't run this website. I agree that "to accept defective design or equipment without complaint, no matter how great the boat is," is a reasonable idea. Changes DO happen between the pictures and the real boat, as you've learned. I hope that you've been able to get enough input from this resource. Please let us know how it goes for you and others with Snake River. It is, all told, interesting that the waste tank isn't flat, nor is it clear. BTW, you should be getting 1/2 gallon per hour on your engine, so when the fuel gauge goes out, you can keep track of your next fill up by tracking the engine hours. Thanks again, and keep posting your concerns for all of us to understand. Ta
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Blair Dehuff
Fuel Consumption
Charterer, Thanks for your thoughts, as well as the tip on fuel consumption. The 1/2 gal/hr figure I assume is a good average. I used to have the fuel consumption curves for my previous Catalina which had a Yanmar. The C350 has Universal, so I'm wondering what the difference in fuel consumption is for, say 2200 RPM's vs. 2500. BTW, the drive shaft problem I mentioned was that it was out of tolerence by 7 1,000's after only 4 months of use. Not good. Only 4 1,000's out of alignment can cause major damage over time. Anyone else have this problem? Did your dealer check this during commissioning? The Catalina manual says that the drive shaft alignment must be checked right after the boat is put in the water, the mast is stepped, and the rig is tuned. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
Charterer, Thanks for your thoughts, as well as the tip on fuel consumption. The 1/2 gal/hr figure I assume is a good average. I used to have the fuel consumption curves for my previous Catalina which had a Yanmar. The C350 has Universal, so I'm wondering what the difference in fuel consumption is for, say 2200 RPM's vs. 2500. BTW, the drive shaft problem I mentioned was that it was out of tolerence by 7 1,000's after only 4 months of use. Not good. Only 4 1,000's out of alignment can cause major damage over time. Anyone else have this problem? Did your dealer check this during commissioning? The Catalina manual says that the drive shaft alignment must be checked right after the boat is put in the water, the mast is stepped, and the rig is tuned. Blair Dehuff C350 #116
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HX
Fuel Consumption (back)
Blair You wrote: "The C350 has Universal, so I'm wondering what the difference in fuel consumption is for, say 2200 RPM's vs. 2500." It would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible and even unnecessary, to bother with that difference, because the variables are too many to conisder making the effort. For instance, conidtion of bottom, wind strength, weight in boat (people, stuff over the years, etc.). It seems to be easier to check your speed through the water at any given time against the rpms. If increasing the rpms by 100 gives you 0.2 extra knots from 2200 to 2300, but you only get 0.005 knots increase from 2400 to 2500, then you know you're using more fuel without a return in speed, and just pushing more water with less fuel efficiency. The 1/2 gal. per hour is easy to calculate on a spreadsheet. Just keep track of the engine hours and gallons at each fill and you'll see the patterns. My actual use on a Universal is actually well less than 1/2 gal/hr over five years. Hrs/gal and gals/hr are easy to do. Good luck with your engine alignment.
Blair You wrote: "The C350 has Universal, so I'm wondering what the difference in fuel consumption is for, say 2200 RPM's vs. 2500." It would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible and even unnecessary, to bother with that difference, because the variables are too many to conisder making the effort. For instance, conidtion of bottom, wind strength, weight in boat (people, stuff over the years, etc.). It seems to be easier to check your speed through the water at any given time against the rpms. If increasing the rpms by 100 gives you 0.2 extra knots from 2200 to 2300, but you only get 0.005 knots increase from 2400 to 2500, then you know you're using more fuel without a return in speed, and just pushing more water with less fuel efficiency. The 1/2 gal. per hour is easy to calculate on a spreadsheet. Just keep track of the engine hours and gallons at each fill and you'll see the patterns. My actual use on a Universal is actually well less than 1/2 gal/hr over five years. Hrs/gal and gals/hr are easy to do. Good luck with your engine alignment.
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Chic Lasser
Another Option
Blair same problem with a C36. I am looking into another type of system that I saw another C36 this summer with. It is called fireboy made by Xintex in Michigan. It utilizes a different sensor system and is led readable in small increments. On a C36 the water tanks would use a screw in sensor the holding tank would need to be modified and installed on the top. More expessive than a Snake River system but much more accurate from what I saw this summer while cruising. Hey it's only a couple of hundred bucks, what the hey!!!
Blair same problem with a C36. I am looking into another type of system that I saw another C36 this summer with. It is called fireboy made by Xintex in Michigan. It utilizes a different sensor system and is led readable in small increments. On a C36 the water tanks would use a screw in sensor the holding tank would need to be modified and installed on the top. More expessive than a Snake River system but much more accurate from what I saw this summer while cruising. Hey it's only a couple of hundred bucks, what the hey!!!
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Blair Dehuff
Another Option
Chic, Thanks for the tip. I am currently waiting for a proposed retro-fit which will fix the C350 waste tank monitor problem from the Engineering Mgr of Snake River, David T. Davis (thanks Trevor- SailboatOwners.com). Dave Davis agrees there is a problem. He has just obtained a CAD drawing of the waste tank from Catalina. I'll post any proposed retro-fit solution here. Hopefully, it will be something very simple like modifying the sensor strips (which are easily accessible on the front of the tank). If it works, maybe Catalina will make the change in future. Thanks, Blair
Chic, Thanks for the tip. I am currently waiting for a proposed retro-fit which will fix the C350 waste tank monitor problem from the Engineering Mgr of Snake River, David T. Davis (thanks Trevor- SailboatOwners.com). Dave Davis agrees there is a problem. He has just obtained a CAD drawing of the waste tank from Catalina. I'll post any proposed retro-fit solution here. Hopefully, it will be something very simple like modifying the sensor strips (which are easily accessible on the front of the tank). If it works, maybe Catalina will make the change in future. Thanks, Blair
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