Having a building and safety standards (or guide) is not only a good idea, but a necessity. Our safety can depend on it, our insurance premiums are based on it. I would imagine if everyone adhered to ABYC standards, the Coast Guard would have an easier time and we would save tax money. I’m not sure what the percentage is of boat owners doing their own work – but from casual observation, I feel that’s it’s quite high. So my question then is, why aren’t the ABYC standards available to everyone, free? If it’s that important to install electrical wiring to specs for instance, why can’t we get the information to do the job correctly? Or am I missing something here? I know the institution requires money to operate. I know it keeps boat yards in a secured position. But that kind of information on the safety and wellbeing of boaters should be in the public domain. Don’t you think?
ABYC Standards access
- Thread starter MABell
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good point
I guess money is more important... I've found the standards in our local library which isn't that large so you might try your's
I guess money is more important... I've found the standards in our local library which isn't that large so you might try your's
If the standards are that important,
They're worth paying for. They cost money to develop, more money to continually update...so why should they be free? Besides, you don't need all of them, only the ones for the system(s) you're re-doing.
They're worth paying for. They cost money to develop, more money to continually update...so why should they be free? Besides, you don't need all of them, only the ones for the system(s) you're re-doing.
The Federal Regulations ...
are available on-line: http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/fedreg.htm That should give you some guidelines.
are available on-line: http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/fedreg.htm That should give you some guidelines.
In my humble opinion,,,
Rules-makers gravitate to these positions. They like to make rules and force others to play by them. Sure, there's exceptions. That's what makes the rule. (oops, that's a double-something :{) Anyway, there will always be new rules/standards. Just like with agencies such as the EPA, the environment will never be clean enough. They would then be out of a job. Like any 'rules' agency (UL), these guys got their start and now they're snowballing. "Old standards are dangerous, only use our new stuff! It's right here, just send your MONEY!" Of course, this isn't just my humble opinion.
Rules-makers gravitate to these positions. They like to make rules and force others to play by them. Sure, there's exceptions. That's what makes the rule. (oops, that's a double-something :{) Anyway, there will always be new rules/standards. Just like with agencies such as the EPA, the environment will never be clean enough. They would then be out of a job. Like any 'rules' agency (UL), these guys got their start and now they're snowballing. "Old standards are dangerous, only use our new stuff! It's right here, just send your MONEY!" Of course, this isn't just my humble opinion.
Adding to what Fred said...
some of the high tech firms are ensuring they have their people on the "Standards Committee" for the particular technology they manufacture (cell phones, computers, software, etc) so that the "Standard" that is developed favors the technology on which they hold patent rights, giving them marketplace leverage in licensing income. Case in point is the situation surrounding Blackberry devices. It's all about money.
some of the high tech firms are ensuring they have their people on the "Standards Committee" for the particular technology they manufacture (cell phones, computers, software, etc) so that the "Standard" that is developed favors the technology on which they hold patent rights, giving them marketplace leverage in licensing income. Case in point is the situation surrounding Blackberry devices. It's all about money.
Standards are not regulations
Y'all need to learn the difference between regulations and standards. Regs dictate WHAT is required...standards recommend the best and safest way to do it. Standards are not mandatory "codes" like building codes on land...they aren't rules. nor is there any requirement to follow 'em (and y'all would be amazed at how many standards boat builders DON'T follow). Standards don't include any specfic technology or equipment either...nor do they recommend one type of equipment over another...they only apply to installation of systems. Btw. Fred...Title 46 and Title 33 (the only two CFR chapters referenced in the link you provided) are only two of many parts of the CFR that pertain to boats. And then there are the CG regs...
Y'all need to learn the difference between regulations and standards. Regs dictate WHAT is required...standards recommend the best and safest way to do it. Standards are not mandatory "codes" like building codes on land...they aren't rules. nor is there any requirement to follow 'em (and y'all would be amazed at how many standards boat builders DON'T follow). Standards don't include any specfic technology or equipment either...nor do they recommend one type of equipment over another...they only apply to installation of systems. Btw. Fred...Title 46 and Title 33 (the only two CFR chapters referenced in the link you provided) are only two of many parts of the CFR that pertain to boats. And then there are the CG regs...
Free How to DIY advise?
Peggy, I know the difference between regulations and standards. I feel that anyone qualified to work on a boat should be able to figure out how to insure their work meets the regulations. The original post asks "So my question then is, why aren’t the ABYC standards available to everyone, free? If it’s that important to install electrical wiring to specs for instance, why can’t we get the information to do the job correctly?" Why should they be? As you said, the standards are developed to insure the regulations are met. Figuring that out takes time and money. Do we expect the ABYC to work for free? Lives indeed are at stake. Why do we allow uninformed owners to put themselves, other boats, and the people that may have to rescue them at risk? How many of us have found lamp cord run inside masts to running lights? Or a 15 foot run of 16 gauge to power a bilge blower? Cracks in deck gelcoat around a rusty sheet metal screw holding a dodger in place? I think that people that care enough to do it right, will have no problem finding the information they need. The others wouldn't read and or wouldn't follow recommendations in ABYC standards even if a full set was delivered to their boat. It is a hard thing to do, to suggest to someone that they might not have the knowledge or skill to do a job on their boat. The last thing we need is to hand out enough knowledge to make more people dangerous.
I'm sure I didn't make any friends there, but that's my opinion. I spend hours re-doing jobs that sometimes well meaning, sometimes cheap, owners have botched on their boats.
Peggy, I know the difference between regulations and standards. I feel that anyone qualified to work on a boat should be able to figure out how to insure their work meets the regulations. The original post asks "So my question then is, why aren’t the ABYC standards available to everyone, free? If it’s that important to install electrical wiring to specs for instance, why can’t we get the information to do the job correctly?" Why should they be? As you said, the standards are developed to insure the regulations are met. Figuring that out takes time and money. Do we expect the ABYC to work for free? Lives indeed are at stake. Why do we allow uninformed owners to put themselves, other boats, and the people that may have to rescue them at risk? How many of us have found lamp cord run inside masts to running lights? Or a 15 foot run of 16 gauge to power a bilge blower? Cracks in deck gelcoat around a rusty sheet metal screw holding a dodger in place? I think that people that care enough to do it right, will have no problem finding the information they need. The others wouldn't read and or wouldn't follow recommendations in ABYC standards even if a full set was delivered to their boat. It is a hard thing to do, to suggest to someone that they might not have the knowledge or skill to do a job on their boat. The last thing we need is to hand out enough knowledge to make more people dangerous.
I'm sure I didn't make any friends there, but that's my opinion. I spend hours re-doing jobs that sometimes well meaning, sometimes cheap, owners have botched on their boats.
A good idea, Moody
but regardless of the standards, rules, regulations, etc., there's still shoddy work out there and will be for all time to come. How many times have you tried to answer questions and have been dismayed by the lack of comprehension. And the old "can lead a horse to water..." You know, like trying to explain that there really is no answer to the "What is the 'BEST' anything....? type of questions. There is so much information out there, readily available, and my experience is that it's repeated over and over again because people just won't do their own, again, dare I say it, homework and research. This site has a great searchable archive. Many of us, you included, work hard to understand by doing our research. Many don't, and just ask the questions first. All we can do is to keep trying to help, point them in the right and for those folks who think we're lecturing them about homework let their complaints roll off our backs, because the only way we learned was by asking and reading, and continuing to contribute. We can't make 'em read it.
but regardless of the standards, rules, regulations, etc., there's still shoddy work out there and will be for all time to come. How many times have you tried to answer questions and have been dismayed by the lack of comprehension. And the old "can lead a horse to water..." You know, like trying to explain that there really is no answer to the "What is the 'BEST' anything....? type of questions. There is so much information out there, readily available, and my experience is that it's repeated over and over again because people just won't do their own, again, dare I say it, homework and research. This site has a great searchable archive. Many of us, you included, work hard to understand by doing our research. Many don't, and just ask the questions first. All we can do is to keep trying to help, point them in the right and for those folks who think we're lecturing them about homework let their complaints roll off our backs, because the only way we learned was by asking and reading, and continuing to contribute. We can't make 'em read it.
What if...
…your required to take a drivers test to renew your license next year. But they will not tell you the expectations they are looking for in passing the test – nor any sort of study guide to prepare for it. The EPA tells you that your car must pass an emissions test and you, being a mechanic, know that you tune your car to meet those test levels – but they will not tell you what the levels are. What if your kid has to meet the “No Child Left Behind” regulations, or heshe doesn’t graduate high school. But they don’t tell you (or the school) what those expectations are. Simply put – if your required to meet some expectations, they should be spelled out.
…your required to take a drivers test to renew your license next year. But they will not tell you the expectations they are looking for in passing the test – nor any sort of study guide to prepare for it. The EPA tells you that your car must pass an emissions test and you, being a mechanic, know that you tune your car to meet those test levels – but they will not tell you what the levels are. What if your kid has to meet the “No Child Left Behind” regulations, or heshe doesn’t graduate high school. But they don’t tell you (or the school) what those expectations are. Simply put – if your required to meet some expectations, they should be spelled out.
Here is a good description on what ABYC is and
What it isn't. Thank you Blue Seas -- one of the absolutely BEST Boat electrical websites AND Marine electrical Products out there - Quality in everything I have seen come from them "Technical Brief - ABYC Explained "American Boat & Yacht Council, Inc. (ABYC) develops the voluntary consensus safety standards for the design, construction, equipage, maintenance, and repair of small craft. The development of uniform standards is the basis for industry-wide comparisons of products and performance. Both nationally and internationally, ABYC is on the leading edge of movement toward greater use of and reliance upon standards that improve your products, increase your profits and improve boating safety for your customers." To understand in detail what ABYC does it is important to differentiate what they do not do as well. Perhaps the most fundamental distinction is that ABYC does not test or certify any components that are used aboard boats. They do specify what type of components need to be installed, in what situations and how they need to be installed. In some cases ABYC also will specify a standard such as those from UL that a component must conform to or a type of functionality that a component must have. An example of this is the common specification that circuit breakers must be "trip-free". Another way to think of this is that ABYC sets systems standards that are comprised of products manufactured to component standards to which they are then tested by organizations such as UL." Full write up here http://www.bluesea.com/Article_detail.asp?Section_ID=294&id=315
What it isn't. Thank you Blue Seas -- one of the absolutely BEST Boat electrical websites AND Marine electrical Products out there - Quality in everything I have seen come from them "Technical Brief - ABYC Explained "American Boat & Yacht Council, Inc. (ABYC) develops the voluntary consensus safety standards for the design, construction, equipage, maintenance, and repair of small craft. The development of uniform standards is the basis for industry-wide comparisons of products and performance. Both nationally and internationally, ABYC is on the leading edge of movement toward greater use of and reliance upon standards that improve your products, increase your profits and improve boating safety for your customers." To understand in detail what ABYC does it is important to differentiate what they do not do as well. Perhaps the most fundamental distinction is that ABYC does not test or certify any components that are used aboard boats. They do specify what type of components need to be installed, in what situations and how they need to be installed. In some cases ABYC also will specify a standard such as those from UL that a component must conform to or a type of functionality that a component must have. An example of this is the common specification that circuit breakers must be "trip-free". Another way to think of this is that ABYC sets systems standards that are comprised of products manufactured to component standards to which they are then tested by organizations such as UL." Full write up here http://www.bluesea.com/Article_detail.asp?Section_ID=294&id=315
Here are some ABYC and UL Exerpts for you boaters
Once again from Blue Seas. Since they are so generous at helping boaters with an excelent website Remember them when it comes time if you need some marine electrical stuff UL and ABYC and other electrical marine excerpts http://www.bluesea.com/sections.asp?Section_ID=294&Parent_ID=145
Once again from Blue Seas. Since they are so generous at helping boaters with an excelent website Remember them when it comes time if you need some marine electrical stuff UL and ABYC and other electrical marine excerpts http://www.bluesea.com/sections.asp?Section_ID=294&Parent_ID=145
MABell you have a few things wrong
with regards to ABYC suggested Building to ABYC is NOT required. You cannot compare it to a drivers test. There is no government mandate that a boat is certified by the ABYC or any other marine standards body. I think we would all agree that most of us like those standards body guidelines and it gives us a certain level of comfort at what level of design and features are built into a boat to meet a 'modicum' of safety and quality. You want to know something very interesting? J-Boats are not ABYC certified as a boat, they do refer to meeting certain ABYC sections like wiring for instance, but I don't think you'll find them with an ABYC certificate for their boats. Does that mean they are worse boat because of it ? No not necessarily, I would never suggest that but it makes one wonder what the parts of the standards it has that they don't conform to, or why they didn't want to get certfified. Obviously J boats are nice boats, if not a little pricey for the money Remember, ABYC standards (or any of them) are not a line in the sand or definitive. They are changing and evolving all the time. Just because something you do might be the recommended way to do it this year doesn't mean that next year it might be suggested that you do it differently. It doesn't mean that they way you did it this year is bad, just different and designs/features/products and knowledge are always evolving. Just MHO if people want to know how to build in marine systems and do repairs I think a good book like Calders and internet research on the subject matter is always a good place to start.
with regards to ABYC suggested Building to ABYC is NOT required. You cannot compare it to a drivers test. There is no government mandate that a boat is certified by the ABYC or any other marine standards body. I think we would all agree that most of us like those standards body guidelines and it gives us a certain level of comfort at what level of design and features are built into a boat to meet a 'modicum' of safety and quality. You want to know something very interesting? J-Boats are not ABYC certified as a boat, they do refer to meeting certain ABYC sections like wiring for instance, but I don't think you'll find them with an ABYC certificate for their boats. Does that mean they are worse boat because of it ? No not necessarily, I would never suggest that but it makes one wonder what the parts of the standards it has that they don't conform to, or why they didn't want to get certfified. Obviously J boats are nice boats, if not a little pricey for the money Remember, ABYC standards (or any of them) are not a line in the sand or definitive. They are changing and evolving all the time. Just because something you do might be the recommended way to do it this year doesn't mean that next year it might be suggested that you do it differently. It doesn't mean that they way you did it this year is bad, just different and designs/features/products and knowledge are always evolving. Just MHO if people want to know how to build in marine systems and do repairs I think a good book like Calders and internet research on the subject matter is always a good place to start.
Fwiw, ABYC does not certify anything
There is no such thing as an "ABYC certified boat."Some things on boats must be USCG certified--which requires meeting standards set forth in the CFR--in order to be legal, but ABYC does not certify anything.
There is no such thing as an "ABYC certified boat."Some things on boats must be USCG certified--which requires meeting standards set forth in the CFR--in order to be legal, but ABYC does not certify anything.
Peggie, yes thanks for the clarification
I didn't mean that ABYC actually goes out and does the certification that boats meet their present standards. They do have certification courses for boating professionals to take that run the gamut from Composite Boat Builder Certification, Diesel or Gas Engine Certification, Electrical Certification, Marine Corrosion Certification, Refrigeration and A/C Certification, etc What I meant to infer is that boatbuilders will "self certify" and proclaim that they meet and build to the present ABYC standards. There is no "laws" per se and standards compliance is voluntary and there are no enforcement powers Another thing we need to remember the ABYC is not a government agency, its just a non-profit member supported organization which develops and publishes voluntary standards and recommended practices for boat and equipment design, construction, service, and repair. If any individual wants to join and become a member they are more than welcome.
I didn't mean that ABYC actually goes out and does the certification that boats meet their present standards. They do have certification courses for boating professionals to take that run the gamut from Composite Boat Builder Certification, Diesel or Gas Engine Certification, Electrical Certification, Marine Corrosion Certification, Refrigeration and A/C Certification, etc What I meant to infer is that boatbuilders will "self certify" and proclaim that they meet and build to the present ABYC standards. There is no "laws" per se and standards compliance is voluntary and there are no enforcement powers Another thing we need to remember the ABYC is not a government agency, its just a non-profit member supported organization which develops and publishes voluntary standards and recommended practices for boat and equipment design, construction, service, and repair. If any individual wants to join and become a member they are more than welcome.
Thank you TomS...
...for your input. I'm the type of person that when I do a project (and my wife would emphasize “when”), I only want to do it once. So I want all the information. When guidelines become standards, in my mine, is when someone (like an insurance carrier) dictates that I must meet some guidelines, or they are not going to insure me. But, this has been a good discussion with good input from everyone. I will plow ahead.
...for your input. I'm the type of person that when I do a project (and my wife would emphasize “when”), I only want to do it once. So I want all the information. When guidelines become standards, in my mine, is when someone (like an insurance carrier) dictates that I must meet some guidelines, or they are not going to insure me. But, this has been a good discussion with good input from everyone. I will plow ahead.
If you have specific questions
... there are probably people here that have access to the ABYC standards. I think I have an older copy of the Canadian standards around here somewhere. I'd be more than happy to look things up (although our standards are not exactly the same). Randy
... there are probably people here that have access to the ABYC standards. I think I have an older copy of the Canadian standards around here somewhere. I'd be more than happy to look things up (although our standards are not exactly the same). Randy
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