a tartan 34 or a cal 34.. suggestions?...

[centerline]

a tartan 34 and a cal 34, both 1977 ... both are affordable, the cal is in need of some elbow grease on the decks and interior, and it recently (50hrs) had a refit with a new engine and trans (westerbeke)....

the tartan is like new shiny, appears to be well maintained and all original, with unknown hours on the engine at this time...

both boats are supposedly in turn-key condition, but before i think about ordering a survey on either boat, I would like to hear some pros and cons of both boats so it will help me decide which way to lean...

the cal is half the price of the tartan, so it has my attention at this time... Thanks

 

[Chris Patterson]

Hey man, a Tartan is inarguably a nice boat, I like them a lot. I'm familiar with both. But a Cal with a fresh diesel for half the money? C'mon bro. That's ten large right off the jump street,(the Westy). You know exactly which Westerbeke it is?

 

[Alan Gomes]

If you decide to go for the Cal, make sure that you verify the condition of the mild steel mast support beam that takes the compression of the deck stepped mast. It is hidden inside a liner and is not easy to inspect, nor is the repair/replacement especially simple.

Google "mast support beam cal" to get an idea what you might be looking at.

 

[THECUSCUS]

Those two are pretty different designs. Tartan is full keel, with centerboard, skeg hung rudder vs. fin keel with a spade rudder. What is your sailing area like? Wide open deep water or do you do shallow water gunk holing ( I know you have a Mac)? The tartan ( I looked at these before deciding on a Pearson 35) ,has lots of room below and a nice layout, a nice large cockpit and tiller steering perhaps. The thing I didn't care for was the location of the engine (although it is easy to work on there) and the fact the ones I found were gas engines. Sorry, don't know squat about Cal's, they had too much draft for me to even consider looking at them. Looking at the sailboat data page on them, they don't look very accommodating below, and I wouldn't care for their layout. I looked at boats every weekend for two months before I found one worthy of a survey. It's simply amazing what some people consider "ready to sail". There are plenty of boats out there, it's really a buyers market. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

[centerline]

Hey man, a Tartan is inarguably a nice boat, I like them a lot. I'm familiar with both. But a Cal with a fresh diesel for half the money? C'mon bro. That's ten large right off the jump street,(the Westy). You know exactly which Westerbeke it is?

Chris, I do not know what size the engine is... i will know more after the holidays get over with and there is more information gathered
and in my opinion, half the money is only relative to the performance and characteristics of the boat.... the tartan at about 29 asking price and the cal at 15 asking price....

the lower price beckons, especially with the new (not rebuilt) motor and trans, (complete repower) but if the performance and livability is extremely lacking in it, then i have to question the actual value of the purchase over a boat that may be so much better for the money..... all i am looking for is a boat that we can travel the coast in, and try the liveabord thing while we get ready for retirement... and I want a boat that is not so big that it becomes burdensome trying to get around the smaller anchorages in.

in reply to Alan Gomes....

the beam... ive read a a slight bit about this. but according to what i have read, the mk3 didnt have this problem. but this isnt confirmed by me...

you mention its not so easy to repair, why is this?... what is involved and how do you tell if there is a problem


thecuscus "It's simply amazing what some people consider "ready to sail". There are plenty of boats out there, it's really a buyers market"

unbelievably so....
so is the tartan better for shallow water.... the cal showed as having a 5ft draft... i thought that was reasonable, and even though the tartan had good reviews as a sailing vessel, the gunkholing aspect of the cruise needs to be convenient to...

 

[Alan Gomes]

in reply to Alan Gomes....

the beam... ive read a a slight bit about this. but according to what i have read, the mk3 didnt have this problem. but this isnt confirmed by me...

you mention its not so easy to repair, why is this?... what is involved and how do you tell if there is a problem

Rather than me trying to describe it, just do the Google search I suggested. You'll see some hits that have documented the repair, complete with photos.

It's not an easy repair because it involves a significant amount of cutting and glass work in order to expose the beam. it's difficult to inspect because the beam is inside a liner that forms a threshold between the main cabin and the hanging locker/head area. Not sure how you'd inspect it, though perhaps using some kind of borescope would be the ticket: http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=borescope

I don't know what to tell you about the Mk-3, as to whether there was any design change. I think your best bet would be to find a good surveyor who is familiar with the Cal boats of this vintage and pay him to give you a definitive answer.

The Cal boats sail very, very well by the way. If you could be sure of the boat's soundness it would be a nice choice. While I don't think the C34 is the best sailing boat of all of Bill Lapworth's designs, it still sails very nicely and I think you'd probably be pretty happy with it in that respect.

 

[tommays]

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS.html

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 34 Line Drawing.pdf

It is NOT clear if there is steel beam which is a nasty job as i have done it on the 29

I do not like v-drives which it would seem to have if this is the correct line drawing

 

[jibes138]

I know a guy that did the Marion to Bermuda race in his Cal 34 multiple times. He turned it into a cutter rig with some modifications to add a baby stay. Seemed like a rugged boat.

 

[bffatcat]

which boat

The tartan has a reputation for being a solid well built boat The cal at 15K with a new diesel
seems like a good buy. you did not tell us if the tartan had an atomic 4 in it. An old gas engine would be enough to pass the boat if it were me In either case get a good surveyor
b4 deciding.

 

[oldersalt]

Dear Centerline,
A boat is not an investment, as you well know. It IS a love affair. Sit inside both boats. Sit in the cockpit and imagine yourself sailing her on a fine day with a fair wind. Imagine dinghying around her in a beautiful anchorage. Which one makes your heart sing? Which one makes you feel good just looking at her. Go after that one. If neither one does it, keep looking. I know there are lots of practical and financial issues when deciding on your next boat, but if she doesn't meet that first criteria (the singing heart part) you will never be happy with her.

Take it from one who knows from experience. The worst mistake lasted less than a year. The best decision lasted over 10 years.

Oldersalt
"Experience often comes about 5 seconds after you needed it."

 

[Alan Gomes]

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS.html

http://www.richardanderson.net/TechSavvy/CAL_BOATS_files/Cal 34 Line Drawing.pdf

It is NOT clear if there is steel beam which is a nasty job as i have done it on the 29

I do not like v-drives which it would seem to have if this is the correct line drawing

There is no doubt that the original Cal 34 had one. I was considering a late-60's Cal 34 several years back and it most definitely had the dreaded steel beam.

 

[centerline]

I do not like v-drives which it would seem to have if this is the correct line drawing

what are the reported issues with a v-drive setup?

 

[tommays]

It is just more stuff jammed into a space that to already TWO small and the motor is mounted backwards


The stuffing box is which is somewhat in the open in a normal install is now buried under a transmission

 

[CalebD]

With the "V" drive set up the engine is oriented backwards, with the output shaft facing the bow. The "V" drive gear box reverses the direction of the shaft and routes it back under the engine.
In most "V" drive set ups the stuffing box, shaft log (or dripless shaft seal) are inconveniently located under the engine where it is nearly impossible to service them without moving the engine.

There is no reason to fear an Atomic 4 engine if that is what is in the Tartan 34'. It is an engine you can learn to service yourself (with the help of the Moyer Marine forum) and save yourself considerable boat bucks in the process. The Atomic 4 runs smoother and quieter than any diesel and as a bonus you will not smell that sickening diesel smell in your boat.

 

[stevec22206]

A couple in our club purchased a mid eighties Tartan 42 with the V-drive and learned the hard way that there is little support, technical or parts related. Theirs literally self destructed. Conversations with them regarding their experience with this would make me do a 180 with any boat so equipped. They worked feverishly to restore it back to a functioning system, mostly without much help from Tartan or the original manufacturer of the drive train who both swore that it wasn't used in that boat. Stick with a proven system that is still in use today.

Steve

 

[NYSail]

I had a 1977 cal 34 III. This boat has a nice layout and no steal beam. The boat is extremely well balanced and is a real good sailing boat. I loved her and miss the encapsulated keel and DEEP bilge.
Good luck!

 

[Maine Sail]

Our v-drive has 3800 hours on it not including the additional thousands of hours of free wheeling under sail. It has never given us an ounce of problems and I much prefer it for maintenance as I can pull our prop shaft in about 8 minutes with the coupling still on it and alignments are easier too.. A set of modified stuffing box wrenches makes adjusting the stuffing box no more or less difficult than many boats with a non reversing gear. Modifying my wrenches took about 4 minutes with a 4" angle grinder and cut off disc...

Like anything a v-drive is as good as the care it received... I see piles of Hurth HBW or Kanzaki boxes destroyed each year all usually due to improper use or maintenance...

Having owned many non-v-drives and currently owning a v-drive I see ZERO differences in reliability.

I actually prefer the v-drive over straight for a number of reasons...

*Easier alignments
*Easier gear box fluid changes (yearly or bi-yearly, takes me 3 minutes...)
*Easier shaft removal (some models where shaft passes through gear)
*Easier shifter adjustments
*More room on fore end of engine bay
*Easier access to HX on many engines for zinc changes, fluid changes etc.
*Gear can be removed with engine in-place for damper plate replacements etc.
*Easier access to on-engine fuel filter, pump etc. (our engine specifically)
*Easy access to exhaust elbow for removal / inspection or replacement.
*Moves engine driven refrigeration compressor to the aft end of the engine bay making for more room in the forward area

That said I tend to prefer the Tartan 34, especially if it is well kept, they are beautiful boats that also sail beautifully and handle rough weather with ease.. Sparkman and Stephens knows how to design boats.... The Cal 34 is a good sailing boat but I just prefer the T-34C...

Keep in mind that a T-34C has LOTS of exterior teak so if you want to maintain that beautiful heart stopping S&S look she will require some work to keep her looking ready for the prom...

Think about which boat you want to row up to in the anchorage? Which boats lines will sing to you. Most importantly buy a boat based on the three "C's" CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION....

Many people pee their pants when they hear "A4 gas engine". To me is spells GREAT POTENTIAL DEAL!!!! There is NOTHING wrong with an A4 despite all the naysayer's....

They are quiet, don't vibrate, are easy to work on, reliable, parts are easily available and they have a tremendous owners support group over at Moyer Marine.

There are a few necessary mods but once those are done you can expect many, many more years of reliable service. Many T-34C's came with A4's and some later ones came with diesels.. If the boat is in good condition don't turn it down over the engine but DO NOT over pay for a gas engine as the vast majority of uneducated/inexperienced boat buyers do not want one.

BTW I know of a pretty nice Pearson 30 recently re-powered and painted. The catch? Her decks are we near the chain plates and no insurance company will insure her in her current condition. Boat is now derelict because to repair the decks exceeds the value of the boat by about 2X... My point here is that a new engine is but one SMALL dynamic in over all boat condition. This P-30 has recent Awlgrip and a repower but is still an uninsurable boat.

 

[centerline]

Our v-drive has 3800 hours on it not including the additional thousands of hours of free wheeling under sail. It has never given us an ounce of problems and I much prefer it for maintenance as I can pull our prop shaft in about 8 minutes with the coupling still on it and alignments are easier too.. A set of modified stuffing box wrenches makes adjusting the stuffing box no more or less difficult than many boats with a non reversing gear. Modifying my wrenches took about 4 minutes with a 4" angle grinder and cut off disc...

Like anything a v-drive is as good as the care it received... I see piles of Hurth HBW or Kanzaki boxes destroyed each year all usually due to improper use or maintenance...

Having owned many non-v-drives and currently owning a v-drive I see ZERO differences in reliability.

I actually prefer the v-drive over straight for a number of reasons...

*Easier alignments
*Easier gear box fluid changes (yearly or bi-yearly, takes me 3 minutes...)
*Easier shaft removal (some models where shaft passes through gear)
*Easier shifter adjustments
*More room on fore end of engine bay
*Easier access to HX on many engines for zinc changes, fluid changes etc.
*Gear can be removed with engine in-place for damper plate replacements etc.
*Easier access to on-engine fuel filter, pump etc. (our engine specifically)
*Easy access to exhaust elbow for removal / inspection or replacement.
*Moves engine driven refrigeration compressor to the aft end of the engine bay making for more room in the forward area

That said I tend to prefer the Tartan 34, especially if it is well kept, they are beautiful boats that also sail beautifully and handle rough weather with ease.. Sparkman and Stephens knows how to design boats.... The Cal 34 is a good sailing boat but I just prefer the T-34C...

Keep in mind that a T-34C has LOTS of exterior teak so if you want to maintain that beautiful heart stopping S&S look she will require some work to keep her looking ready for the prom...

Think about which boat you want to row up to in the anchorage? Which boats lines will sing to you. Most importantly buy a boat based on the three "C's" CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION....

Many people pee their pants when they hear "A4 gas engine". To me is spells GREAT POTENTIAL DEAL!!!! There is NOTHING wrong with an A4 despite all the naysayer's....

They are quiet, don't vibrate, are easy to work on, reliable, parts are easily available and they have a tremendous owners support group over at Moyer Marine.

There are a few necessary mods but once those are done you can expect many, many more years of reliable service. Many T-34C's came with A4's and some later ones came with diesels.. If the boat is in good condition don't turn it down over the engine but DO NOT over pay for a gas engine as the vast majority of uneducated/inexperienced boat buyers do not want one.

BTW I know of a pretty nice Pearson 30 recently re-powered and painted. The catch? Her decks are we near the chain plates and no insurance company will insure her in her current condition. Boat is now derelict because to repair the decks exceeds the value of the boat by about 2X... My point here is that a new engine is but one SMALL dynamic in over all boat condition. This P-30 has recent Awlgrip and a repower but is still an uninsurable boat.

this is good information about the A4 engine... and the V-drive setup... with my experience I should have no problems with the servicing of it, but I sure dont want to start off with a damaged unit...

the T34c im looking at is a shiny boat, but im not so much of a shiny boat person... I like clean and ship shape, with everything in proper order.
shiny is only a result of spare time or a fat wallet... both of which are nice, but im a bit lacking both ways... but keeping priorities in order, i will always strive to make it better.

I have seen in too many cases, where the shiny is just a distraction, and no one pays attention to the lack of mechanical maintanance. but this is not always the case.
experience has taught me to put my energies into what makes it dependable and orderly, as this is what has always gotten me to where i wanted to go...

but with that said, a good looking boat is always pleasant to look at.