'88 Mac 26D Rudder Upgrade?
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I have an early prototype of the Unifoil, which I will part with for about $500. Includes rudder, stainless steel head, and an extra long tiller. The gas strut on thgis one is longer and on the centerline, rather than on the side like the current design. PM for more info
Look on Sumner's website.
I forget the name, but one of the guys on the forum made a wooden one, and posted pics there. It doesn't look to hard to do, and definitely way cheaper than buying a ready made one.
Why are you replacing your rudder?
I hear most guys do it to cure weather helm issues. If your boat is rigging is right, weather helm shouldn't be an issue. At least it wasn't on my boat.
I did put the IDA sail rudder on it, but mostly because it came with the boat, and looked new.
Here is the link....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor-other-people/Other People-index.html
Are you saying that your boat came with both the original rudder and the IdaSailor rudder and you don't notice a difference? Ours had the IdaSailor when we bought it and no original on, so haven't been down that road.
I understand that the rigging can help, but still heard lots of good things about the IdaSailor and we like ours,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Our MacGregor S Pages
Mac-Venture Links
I've heard you can remove the weather helm by moving the mast more upright (?)
I didn't have much luck with that...
a more balanced rudder (ruddercraft or DIY) is a great upgrade, and makes a big difference in performance over 15knts.
the pic above, while crude, reportedly does work quite well.
some have also added around 1.5" to the leading edge of the stock rudder, w. good results.
GL!
(ps: the kit./setup JohnS has is pretty sweet. I'd have gotten it had it been available when I got mine blade.)
I didn't have much luck with that...
a more balanced rudder (ruddercraft or DIY) is a great upgrade, and makes a big difference in performance over 15knts.
the pic above, while crude, reportedly does work quite well.
some have also added around 1.5" to the leading edge of the stock rudder, w. good results.
GL!
(ps: the kit./setup JohnS has is pretty sweet. I'd have gotten it had it been available when I got mine blade.)
Yep, sounds like a good deal to me also,
Sum
Our Endeavour 37
Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida
Our MacGregor S Pages
Mac-Venture Links
Yep!
I only sailed it a few times with the OEM rudder, but I didn't have any issues with it. It just looked old.
I relate to the setup as being similar to an airplane.
When I was a kid I built free flight model airplanes.
The center of gravity was usually about 75% or so, back from the leading edge of the wing. That meant that the horizontal stabilizer would have to carry it's share of the weight, so the tail had to have the same style of lifting airfoil as the wing.
It doesn't just "guide" the airplane's pitch.
Later I started building control line and radio control airplanes.
They typically balance about 10-30% back from the leading edge of the wing.
On those ones, the horizontal stabilizer is usually a flat crossection.
It doesn't have to carry any weight. The wing carries the airplanes weight, and the tail just controls pitch.
So, ...
If the center of pressure is over the keels center, (roughly) the keel carries all of the side loading caused by the wind, and the rudder just steers with only light loading.
Now most guys purposely trim in some weather helm for safety, it doesn't have to be so much that the rudder can't carry it's share of the load.
Whew, did that make any sense?
Jim
Another possible solution... I can't remember which BB I saw this on, or who posted it,but someone drilled a new pivot hole in the rudder so that while it's all the way down, the very bottom front edge/corner is positioned a couple inches more forward, which apparently has the same affect as extending the front edge of the rudder. If it really works, seems like an easy, no cost solution, that might be worth trying, if you're trying to get rid of weather helm.
Said another way.
We always refer to the force we feel on the tiller as weather helm. We change the geometry on the rudder to get rid of that force. That in itself does not change how hard the rudder is having to work (weather helm). For instance imagine that your rudder plows through the water sideways under heavy air and you have to pull real hard on the tiller.
You could swing the rudder forward of the hinge point and you won't have to pull hard anymore, but it will still plow sideways in the water in heavy air.
In those two examples the rudder is being asked to carry more load than it can without making it bigger.
You would have to change the relative positions of the sails and keel to take the load off the rudder.
I learned that on my 1st dinghy. In heavy air the rudder would stall, and plow sideways in the water. I moved the hole where the mast goes into , forward a little and that all went away.
The Ida Sail rudder does have a little more area, and the leading edge is farther forward, closer to the hinge. Maybe that's enough different to solve a lot of guys weather helm issues.
Personally I just like the way it looks!
We always refer to the force we feel on the tiller as weather helm. We change the geometry on the rudder to get rid of that force. That in itself does not change how hard the rudder is having to work (weather helm). For instance imagine that your rudder plows through the water sideways under heavy air and you have to pull real hard on the tiller.
You could swing the rudder forward of the hinge point and you won't have to pull hard anymore, but it will still plow sideways in the water in heavy air.
In those two examples the rudder is being asked to carry more load than it can without making it bigger.
You would have to change the relative positions of the sails and keel to take the load off the rudder.
I learned that on my 1st dinghy. In heavy air the rudder would stall, and plow sideways in the water. I moved the hole where the mast goes into , forward a little and that all went away.
The Ida Sail rudder does have a little more area, and the leading edge is farther forward, closer to the hinge. Maybe that's enough different to solve a lot of guys weather helm issues.
Personally I just like the way it looks!
Hey guys,
Thanks for all the responses. Sorry it's taken me awhile to get back on.
(Oreana32 I sent you a PM)
Yes, I'm feeling quite a bit of weather helm and the rudder feels generally vague. When I'm close hauled (flying the main and a working jib), it always feels like I'm sailing right on the edge of having the rudder stall and let the boat round up. Particularly noticeable in higher wind. We were out in 18-20 knot winds with the main reefed in last week and keeping it from rounding up was a challenge.
I have the forestay turnbuckle tightened all the way in to pull the mast as far forward as possible and the side stays tensioned to induce about 3" of bow in the mast. Any suggestions on adjusting the standing rigging differently?
I also don't care for the amount of flex and free play in the stock rudder assembly and tiller. I've read several suggestions on stiffening the rudder box with either a 6-8" aluminum plate to create a torque box or simply stiffening it up by installing a board internal to the upper channel.
I also have to admit forgetting to release the rudder when pulling the trailer out at the ramp and scraping the rudder up. Am thinking it would be nice to have a rudder that kicks itself up when my brain disengages after a day on the water.
Considered working up a home brew rudder with a NACA 12 profile that brings the leading edge forward by about 1 1/2" and doing the torque box mod to the channel, but am leaning more toward picking up one that's already done.
Would love to hear from anybody with experience with the daggerboard Macs.
Thanks in advance,
Brad
Los Angeles, CA
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for all the responses. Sorry it's taken me awhile to get back on.
(Oreana32 I sent you a PM)
Yes, I'm feeling quite a bit of weather helm and the rudder feels generally vague. When I'm close hauled (flying the main and a working jib), it always feels like I'm sailing right on the edge of having the rudder stall and let the boat round up. Particularly noticeable in higher wind. We were out in 18-20 knot winds with the main reefed in last week and keeping it from rounding up was a challenge.
I have the forestay turnbuckle tightened all the way in to pull the mast as far forward as possible and the side stays tensioned to induce about 3" of bow in the mast. Any suggestions on adjusting the standing rigging differently?
I also don't care for the amount of flex and free play in the stock rudder assembly and tiller. I've read several suggestions on stiffening the rudder box with either a 6-8" aluminum plate to create a torque box or simply stiffening it up by installing a board internal to the upper channel.
I also have to admit forgetting to release the rudder when pulling the trailer out at the ramp and scraping the rudder up. Am thinking it would be nice to have a rudder that kicks itself up when my brain disengages after a day on the water.
Considered working up a home brew rudder with a NACA 12 profile that brings the leading edge forward by about 1 1/2" and doing the torque box mod to the channel, but am leaning more toward picking up one that's already done.
Would love to hear from anybody with experience with the daggerboard Macs.
Thanks in advance,
Brad
Los Angeles, CA
Thanks in advance.
I've never sailed a Mac, but my 3 boats all behaved similarly to yours when sailing close hauled. I bought an IdaSailor rudder for the 22 and it completely cured the weather helm issues. So I made rudders for my other two boats with an airfoil shape similar to the IdaSailor rudder and got the same results, much reduced weather helm and better control. I had already tried adusting the mast rake and sail plan without any success. Now I can bury the rail and hold the boat right on the edge without feeling like its always about to get away from me and round up.
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There is another component to a well-made rudder: aerodynamic lift. If you have a rudder with a well made symmetrical airfoil, it will generate lift to assist the rudder's effectivity, reducing tiller input forces. Looking at rudder shapes on racing boats where lift and drag are supremely important, and comparing that extreme to the "barn door" type of rudders on cruising boats, where does your rudder lie on that spectrum? The Ruddercraft airfoil elevates the rudder/tiller systems of many boats to the racing end of the performance field.
If you have this on your D then boxing will help the feel, You can just use a plate with screws also.
Just easing the main or lowering the traveler a little will ease weather helm.
Just easing the main or lowering the traveler a little will ease weather helm.
In all honesty I was real disappointed when I got my ida rudder because it really was not much bigger than the one I had on the boat.
BUT
What a difference!!
BUT
What a difference!!
Timebandit,
Thanks for the pic. Saves about 1,000 words right?
I was considering having a plate welded in just like this, but haven't seen pics of how long the plate can be without interfering with pulling the rudder up.
Is this one yours or somebody else's?
Brad
Thanks for the pic. Saves about 1,000 words right?
I was considering having a plate welded in just like this, but haven't seen pics of how long the plate can be without interfering with pulling the rudder up.
Is this one yours or somebody else's?
Brad
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