I recently purchased a 1973 O'day Mariner 2+2, (19 ft, 1400 lb). It came with a 1974 Evinrude 4 HP 2 stroke outboard, but a friend has available a 1996 5 HP 4 stroke Nissan. The Evinrude weighs about 38 lb, the Nissan about 58 lb. Would one of these outboards be better for this boat? I am new to outboards and have not sailed any boat over 15 feet. Does the extra weight on the stern matter? Both are long shaft. Is there any advantage to getting one of those lift-up motor brackets vs clamping onto the transom? Thanks for your advice. Hal
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Both engines will work well depending on their
condition. For extended motoring the 4 stroke will be more fuel efficient. The difference of 20 lbs is not significant except if you have to haul the engine on and off. A retractable motor mount is convenient to help get the lower unit out of the water when sailing or at the dock.
condition. For extended motoring the 4 stroke will be more fuel efficient. The difference of 20 lbs is not significant except if you have to haul the engine on and off. A retractable motor mount is convenient to help get the lower unit out of the water when sailing or at the dock.
I agree with Tom not just because it is green,
4 strokes run better and use less gas. Not only that but with the gas situation like it is, most states require alcohol in the gas. Most pre 2000 motors are not made for running alcohol in the system and it damages hoses and engine components. You mechanic would love you! What is 20# ? If it gets stern heavy, move some gear or people forward. Go for the four stroke. Use the transom. If you can not clear the motor out of the water, then spend money. Then again why not run the 2 stroke till it's dead to save the bucks for two-foot-ites. If you buy the motor and don't use it, it would be very easy to sale later. best to you, r.w.landau
4 strokes run better and use less gas. Not only that but with the gas situation like it is, most states require alcohol in the gas. Most pre 2000 motors are not made for running alcohol in the system and it damages hoses and engine components. You mechanic would love you! What is 20# ? If it gets stern heavy, move some gear or people forward. Go for the four stroke. Use the transom. If you can not clear the motor out of the water, then spend money. Then again why not run the 2 stroke till it's dead to save the bucks for two-foot-ites. If you buy the motor and don't use it, it would be very easy to sale later. best to you, r.w.landau
outboard
Even though my 25 year old 2 cycle runs like a champ and is easy to maintain, it is loud and stinky. I would trade up.
Even though my 25 year old 2 cycle runs like a champ and is easy to maintain, it is loud and stinky. I would trade up.
how will it be used?
The lift-up brackets are useful to reduce drag by removing the prop from the water while under sail, and depending on the shaft length and ramp_- better for launching. If you keep the boat in a marina, I think you might as well go with a lift-up bracket, and the four stroke engine. The convenience of not having to mix oil with your gas is also nice. On the other hand, if you're trailering and keep your motor off the boat most of the time, and have to lift up the motor to mount it on the trailered boat every time you take her out, it might not be worth the extra aggravation.
The lift-up brackets are useful to reduce drag by removing the prop from the water while under sail, and depending on the shaft length and ramp_- better for launching. If you keep the boat in a marina, I think you might as well go with a lift-up bracket, and the four stroke engine. The convenience of not having to mix oil with your gas is also nice. On the other hand, if you're trailering and keep your motor off the boat most of the time, and have to lift up the motor to mount it on the trailered boat every time you take her out, it might not be worth the extra aggravation.
I disagree slightly
If you are a sailer, you probably won't use that outboard much. The 2 stroke will use quite a bit more fuel, and not be as enviromentally friendy. The difference between 4 and 5 HP is no big deal. Your Mariner will go hull speed with either. Where your trouble will be is with the extra 20 pounds. It doesn't seem like much, but on a boat with that little displacement, you'll notice the stern sitting squat. that 20 lbs couldn't be placed in a worse spot. Your weight is already in the cockpit, and that is also where a lot of gear accumulates. Throw 20 out as far back as you can and you have problems. It will definately hurt your performance. I had a Capri 18 and had that problem with a Honda 5HP and switched to a honda 2HP that only weighed 30 lbs. Huge diffeence. Of course, you can offset the 20 by putting as much of your gear forward as possible. If you have a waterline marked on your boat, have someone from a dock or another boat tell you wher you are at, trim wise. The first picture my wife took from shore of my C18 I was horrofied to see how she squatted. Performance picked up noticably when I got the weight forward, and went to the lighter motor. Take Care, Steve
If you are a sailer, you probably won't use that outboard much. The 2 stroke will use quite a bit more fuel, and not be as enviromentally friendy. The difference between 4 and 5 HP is no big deal. Your Mariner will go hull speed with either. Where your trouble will be is with the extra 20 pounds. It doesn't seem like much, but on a boat with that little displacement, you'll notice the stern sitting squat. that 20 lbs couldn't be placed in a worse spot. Your weight is already in the cockpit, and that is also where a lot of gear accumulates. Throw 20 out as far back as you can and you have problems. It will definately hurt your performance. I had a Capri 18 and had that problem with a Honda 5HP and switched to a honda 2HP that only weighed 30 lbs. Huge diffeence. Of course, you can offset the 20 by putting as much of your gear forward as possible. If you have a waterline marked on your boat, have someone from a dock or another boat tell you wher you are at, trim wise. The first picture my wife took from shore of my C18 I was horrofied to see how she squatted. Performance picked up noticably when I got the weight forward, and went to the lighter motor. Take Care, Steve
My 2C
When I went from a 100lb 9.9 to an 80lb 8hp, both two strokes, it made a significant difference in my ability to mount the outboard solo without potentially hurting myself. Both pushed the boat to hull speed, but the 8hp was a bit less robust and would have benefited from a power thruster (shaped fins designed to more efficiently transfer thrust). Regarding a lifting bracket. In my opinion that should be a requirement, not an option. My boat would drag in light air once I turned off the outboard and started to sail...then I would lift the outboard and pick up a full knot easy. The drag was immense. Note that you need to understand the impact of the weight of the outboard AND crew in a small boat before willy nilly drilling holes to mount an adjustable bracket. Mark the water line, then place the outboard at the back of the cockpit and have two friends stand aft and mark it again. That way you can judge where to mount the bracket to best suit all situations. For a boat that size, if you are truly concerned about the environment you could probably even consider electric. Otherwise, in my opinion given the small amount of time your motor will be running, you would make a more significant environmental impact to spend the extra money (that you would spend on a 4 stroke) in fixing a leak in your car. It all ends up in the ocean eventually and our leaky cars contribute more than you think. Bob
When I went from a 100lb 9.9 to an 80lb 8hp, both two strokes, it made a significant difference in my ability to mount the outboard solo without potentially hurting myself. Both pushed the boat to hull speed, but the 8hp was a bit less robust and would have benefited from a power thruster (shaped fins designed to more efficiently transfer thrust). Regarding a lifting bracket. In my opinion that should be a requirement, not an option. My boat would drag in light air once I turned off the outboard and started to sail...then I would lift the outboard and pick up a full knot easy. The drag was immense. Note that you need to understand the impact of the weight of the outboard AND crew in a small boat before willy nilly drilling holes to mount an adjustable bracket. Mark the water line, then place the outboard at the back of the cockpit and have two friends stand aft and mark it again. That way you can judge where to mount the bracket to best suit all situations. For a boat that size, if you are truly concerned about the environment you could probably even consider electric. Otherwise, in my opinion given the small amount of time your motor will be running, you would make a more significant environmental impact to spend the extra money (that you would spend on a 4 stroke) in fixing a leak in your car. It all ends up in the ocean eventually and our leaky cars contribute more than you think. Bob
Outboard
Hal~ As long as the 4 hp runs good and is reliable I would not spend the money on a 96' 5 hp motor. You might save few dollars in gas, but how much motoring will that take to pay for the difference. The 20 lbs will not make any difference that you will ever notice. A motor lift will do two things for you. One thing is that it will make it a little quieter while sailing, no water turbulence. It will allow you to sail a little faster. Use the sailboat and find out if those two things bother you. If they dont, spend that money on something that you might really get enjoyment out of.
Hal~ As long as the 4 hp runs good and is reliable I would not spend the money on a 96' 5 hp motor. You might save few dollars in gas, but how much motoring will that take to pay for the difference. The 20 lbs will not make any difference that you will ever notice. A motor lift will do two things for you. One thing is that it will make it a little quieter while sailing, no water turbulence. It will allow you to sail a little faster. Use the sailboat and find out if those two things bother you. If they dont, spend that money on something that you might really get enjoyment out of.
Do you really want to invest?
I use a Mercury 4hp on my Cal 20, and it works just fine for my purposes. It's enough power, and - given how little motoring I really do - gas mileage isn't an issue. Plus I prefer as little weight as possible when I'm having to yank the motor up out of the water. If it were me, I'd probably keep my money in my pocket rather than upgrade to a 5hp 4 stroke. My boat gives me plenty of other things to spend money on!
I use a Mercury 4hp on my Cal 20, and it works just fine for my purposes. It's enough power, and - given how little motoring I really do - gas mileage isn't an issue. Plus I prefer as little weight as possible when I'm having to yank the motor up out of the water. If it were me, I'd probably keep my money in my pocket rather than upgrade to a 5hp 4 stroke. My boat gives me plenty of other things to spend money on!
4-strokes are heavy
I have a 5hp Honda on my dinghy and I can assure you it is a heavy sucker @ 60#. Sure I am always lifting it on and off the dinghy so it is a bit cumbersome but if you foresee yourself having to put yours on and off more than a couple times the twenty pound difference will be very noticeable. For 60 lbs I wish I had the Nissan 2-stroke 9.8hp for the added oomph at the same weight. I doubt the twenty extra lbs will be noticeable on the transome but it will be very noticeable when you try to lug it around. Four strokes are the way of the future and two strokes are a dying breed but two strokes are lighter and have more torque. I bet that 4hp 2-stroke will push more than the 5hp 4-stroke.
I have a 5hp Honda on my dinghy and I can assure you it is a heavy sucker @ 60#. Sure I am always lifting it on and off the dinghy so it is a bit cumbersome but if you foresee yourself having to put yours on and off more than a couple times the twenty pound difference will be very noticeable. For 60 lbs I wish I had the Nissan 2-stroke 9.8hp for the added oomph at the same weight. I doubt the twenty extra lbs will be noticeable on the transome but it will be very noticeable when you try to lug it around. Four strokes are the way of the future and two strokes are a dying breed but two strokes are lighter and have more torque. I bet that 4hp 2-stroke will push more than the 5hp 4-stroke.
My unorthodox view
1. power to weight ratio, and fewer moving parts - 2 stroke wins BIG TIME over four stroke. Remember, 1/2 the displacement for the same power at the same RPM. 2. Fuel consumption difference for dinghy purposes is negligible; for motoring a small sailboat, would only be a marginal difference. For both well-tuned and running near peak power, 4-stroke 5 HP uses about .355 gal/hr.; same 2-stroke uses .585 gal/hr. (note that an inboard 25 HP diesel pushing a Catalina 36 at hull speed uses only about .4 gal/hour). 3. Green hypocrisy. Many folks have sold or traded their 2-strokes and gotten 4-strokes to be green. Let me remind you, that unless you DESTROY the 2-stroke, you're not being green, since someone else is still using your old 2-stroke (and maybe more than you did!).
1. power to weight ratio, and fewer moving parts - 2 stroke wins BIG TIME over four stroke. Remember, 1/2 the displacement for the same power at the same RPM. 2. Fuel consumption difference for dinghy purposes is negligible; for motoring a small sailboat, would only be a marginal difference. For both well-tuned and running near peak power, 4-stroke 5 HP uses about .355 gal/hr.; same 2-stroke uses .585 gal/hr. (note that an inboard 25 HP diesel pushing a Catalina 36 at hull speed uses only about .4 gal/hour). 3. Green hypocrisy. Many folks have sold or traded their 2-strokes and gotten 4-strokes to be green. Let me remind you, that unless you DESTROY the 2-stroke, you're not being green, since someone else is still using your old 2-stroke (and maybe more than you did!).
OUTBOARD MOTORS
Given the age difference, the 4 stroke will use a lot less gasoline. The '74 2 stroke was not in the least designed with fuel economy in mind. If you do any extended motoring, the difference in gasoline weight will more than make up for the difference in engine weight. The test method for measuring horsepower on these motors has changed since '74. The difference looks like 25% but it might be more. Go with the 5; that day when you are motoring into the wind and a good chop, you'll think it was a great thing to do!
Given the age difference, the 4 stroke will use a lot less gasoline. The '74 2 stroke was not in the least designed with fuel economy in mind. If you do any extended motoring, the difference in gasoline weight will more than make up for the difference in engine weight. The test method for measuring horsepower on these motors has changed since '74. The difference looks like 25% but it might be more. Go with the 5; that day when you are motoring into the wind and a good chop, you'll think it was a great thing to do!
The obvious question and another 2C
How much does your friend want for the 4 stroke? If it is free the question is easier to answer. Also...I'd MUCH rather diagnose and fix a 2 stroke engine while I was floating motionless in the hot sun than a four stroke. They are far less complex. However, the Nissan is a heck of a lot newer. How do the motors run? Wil your friend let you try his out? There is nothing like a side by side comparison...transporting...lifting...mounting and motoring. BobM
How much does your friend want for the 4 stroke? If it is free the question is easier to answer. Also...I'd MUCH rather diagnose and fix a 2 stroke engine while I was floating motionless in the hot sun than a four stroke. They are far less complex. However, the Nissan is a heck of a lot newer. How do the motors run? Wil your friend let you try his out? There is nothing like a side by side comparison...transporting...lifting...mounting and motoring. BobM
Price difference
How much difference is there in the price. I would think that it could be getting difficult to find parts for a nearly 35 year old Mariner, and it's probably old enough to begin to question it's dependability. If only a few dollars difference there would be no question for me. 35 year old motor vs 12 year old motor.
How much difference is there in the price. I would think that it could be getting difficult to find parts for a nearly 35 year old Mariner, and it's probably old enough to begin to question it's dependability. If only a few dollars difference there would be no question for me. 35 year old motor vs 12 year old motor.
4 HP 2 stroke, or 5 HP 4 stroke ?
Thanks to everyone for all the experience and points to consider. Between the All Sailors site and the O'day Owners forum there seem to be slightly more votes for the two stroke, but a lot of good points on both sides. I guess it's not totally clear cut. I may stay with the 2 stroke but haven't fired it up yet to be sure it starts and runs well. If not, the 4 strke won't cost me much since I can do some work for my friend in exchange. Thanks again. Hal
Thanks to everyone for all the experience and points to consider. Between the All Sailors site and the O'day Owners forum there seem to be slightly more votes for the two stroke, but a lot of good points on both sides. I guess it's not totally clear cut. I may stay with the 2 stroke but haven't fired it up yet to be sure it starts and runs well. If not, the 4 strke won't cost me much since I can do some work for my friend in exchange. Thanks again. Hal
TWO STROKE vs. four stroke
WITH A 2 STROKE MOTOR, YOU'LL HAVE TO YELL TO TALK TO SOMEONE WHILE MOTORING. With a 4 stroke, you can talk with a normal voice. N&E mentioned the reliability issue. That is a biggy! That old 2 stroke with find the most god-awful time to let you down. Sip gas, don't yell, and get there and back with the 4 stroke. BrianW
WITH A 2 STROKE MOTOR, YOU'LL HAVE TO YELL TO TALK TO SOMEONE WHILE MOTORING. With a 4 stroke, you can talk with a normal voice. N&E mentioned the reliability issue. That is a biggy! That old 2 stroke with find the most god-awful time to let you down. Sip gas, don't yell, and get there and back with the 4 stroke. BrianW
RIP small two strokes, anyway
This topic made me take a look, and it is disappointing to see what's available for dinghies in the 15HP range - the size my 11' RIB uses. I bought my 2 stroke Merc in late 2000 - I think it's a 2000 model year motor. 15HP via twin cylinders at 73 lb. Fuel consumption - I don't know! Seems like we fill the tank 2 or three times a year, 'though I'm using a small-ish 3 or 3.5 gallon tank - more about that later. At the time, 4 stroke outboard were a lot more money, and a lot heavier for the same power output. Price now is probably about even, given inflation (I paid about $1900 in 2000, the 4-stroke is now $2700 at Defender); wight is still an issue, with the 4-stroke Merc at a whopping 111 lb.! That's 50% more than the weight of the 2-stroke. (No one ever comments on the fuel economy effect of hauling an additional 38 lbs. around, 'though it's probably not huge. I wonder what a head-to-head comparison, each motor on an equivalent boat, would yield?). I can't find a new 15HP two-stroke. I don't think anyone makes one. If I ever need a new motor, I'll be picking up an extra 38 lb. Not looking forward to it!
This topic made me take a look, and it is disappointing to see what's available for dinghies in the 15HP range - the size my 11' RIB uses. I bought my 2 stroke Merc in late 2000 - I think it's a 2000 model year motor. 15HP via twin cylinders at 73 lb. Fuel consumption - I don't know! Seems like we fill the tank 2 or three times a year, 'though I'm using a small-ish 3 or 3.5 gallon tank - more about that later. At the time, 4 stroke outboard were a lot more money, and a lot heavier for the same power output. Price now is probably about even, given inflation (I paid about $1900 in 2000, the 4-stroke is now $2700 at Defender); wight is still an issue, with the 4-stroke Merc at a whopping 111 lb.! That's 50% more than the weight of the 2-stroke. (No one ever comments on the fuel economy effect of hauling an additional 38 lbs. around, 'though it's probably not huge. I wonder what a head-to-head comparison, each motor on an equivalent boat, would yield?). I can't find a new 15HP two-stroke. I don't think anyone makes one. If I ever need a new motor, I'll be picking up an extra 38 lb. Not looking forward to it!
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