4.108 winterizing

[CYQK]

My first time winterizing this engine

When you run rv antifreeze through the system do you leave it in or do you open the drain plug on the heat exchanger after

 

[dlochner]

I run the engine until no AF comes out the exhaust and then leave it. Be certain there is no alcohol in the AF, the alcohol can cause problems with any seals or the impeller.

 

[kloudie1]

From a fellow Forum member:
Engine Winter Freeze Protection - Marine How To
Put the "Marine How To" link in your favorites. Maine Sail has soome really great articles there on many common questions.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Be certain there is no alcohol in the AF, the alcohol can cause problems with any seals or the impeller.

Interesting. I was not aware of that.

Any good reference material about it online? I shall do some searching.

I use propylene glycol to winterize the raw water side of the engine, but I believe a few people here use -60 RV waterline antifreeze. For the whole boat, not just potable water lines.

 

[Rich Stidger]

I use regular ethylene glycol antifreeze in the raw water side. I have previously measured the freeze point of the exiting antifreeze so I know how much to run through each year.
I always leave the antifreeze in the engine so that the anti-corrosion additives protect the internal surfaces. After all, the same antifreeze is in the fresh water cooling loop all the time.
I once had an Atomic 4 in a previous boat (my first with an inboard engine) and the PO told me to drain the antifreeze. Bad idea- in the spring the exhaust manifold was clogged with rust and I had to beat it with a hammer to loosen the rust so water would flow. After that I always left the antifreeze in the engine and never had that problem again.
BTW, I never use any of the RV type antifreeze in my engines- there is no corrosion protection and although it won't freeze solid, I don't even want slush in my engine. And there is no cost savings- two gallons of RV antifreeze is about the same cost as one gallon of glycol mixed 50/50.

 

[Leeward Rail]

When you run rv antifreeze through the system do you leave it in or do you open the drain plug on the heat exchanger after

I drain it. That way I have less propylene glycol in the system on startup in spring. The less of it dumped in the water the better.
Never known anyone here with rust issues, but they all periodically acid flush their systems as described in the atomic 4 maintenance manual.

Ethylene glycol is used in automobiles/trucks/and the closed loop portion of marine engines due to it's superior thermal and friction properties compared to propylene glycol.

Don't ever use pure ethylene glycol for freeze protection. Always use mixed. Contrary to what you may assume, once you get past a 60 ethylene /40 water mix, the freeze point goes up.
Pure ethylene glycol freezes at 9F/-12C

For comparison, pure propylene glycol freezes at well below -60. So

Keep in mind that both are available in 50/50 premix and pure/concentrated. I always buy pure. It is cheaper to mix yourself and we use a 60/40 ethylene mix here in vehicles, due to the extreme cold winters.

@Maine Sail method works great BTW. A sight refractometer is available for under $20 on amazon. Best way to test your vehicles too.

One owner here uses air to purge any water from his engine. Our winters hit - 40 and he has never had a problem in decades. I have yet to see how he does it.

I use a shopvac to suck all the water out of potable water lines.
Makes me wonder about doing that for the engine.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Bad idea- in the spring the exhaust manifold was clogged with rust and I had to beat it with a hammer to loosen the rust so water would flow.

Likely corellation, not causation. Metals rust faster when immersed in water. That is exactly why corrosion additives are in ethylene glycol.

I'd rather minimize corrosion by removing the water/coolant.

Not to mention, many of boats here have atomic 4 that are raw freshwater cooled. No corrosion inhibitors in freshwater.


Many Atomic 4 owners don't follow the maintenance schedule, which includes an acid flush. I suspect you just got nailed by the previous owners lack of maintenance.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I do use Ethylene Glycol for my engine, and I leave it wherever it lays in the engine over the winter without further draining.

Ethylene Glycol is definitely toxic for mammals, so it should not be used in the potable water system or bilge. It also shouldn’t be used in the engine if you’re winterizing on land where it could puddle. But the toxicity to marine life is reported to be not any worse than PG. Citation with some further info: Antifreeze: ethylene glycol vs. propylene glycol - Practical Sailor

 

[Leeward Rail]

It also shouldn’t be used in the engine if you’re winterizing on land where it could puddle.

People engine winterize while still in the water? How is that normally done ? Big bucket of Glycol when motoring to the crane basin? Or put. Glycol in, immediately before hauling?

I may be mis-reading your post.

 

[jssailem]

Onlien research developed this..

Fate, effects and potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol: a review - PubMed

The fate, effects, and potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol (EG) in the environment were examined. EG undergoes rapid biodegradation in aerobic and anaerobic environments (approximately 100% removal of EG within 24 h to 28 days). In air, EG reacts with photo-chemically produced...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol: a review
C A Staples 1, J B Williams, G R Craig, K M Roberts
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 11302583
• DOI: 10.1016/s0045-6535(00)00148-x

Abstract
The fate, effects, and potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol (EG) in the environment were examined. EG undergoes rapid biodegradation in aerobic and anaerobic environments (approximately 100% removal of EG within 24 h to 28 days). In air, EG reacts with photo-chemically produced hydroxyl radicals with a resulting atmospheric half-life of 2 days. Acute toxicity values (LC(50)s and EC(50)s) were generally >10,000 mg/l for fish and aquatic invertebrates. The data collectively show that EG is not persistent in air, surface water, soil, or groundwater, is practically non-toxic to aquatic organisms, and does not bioaccumulate in aquatic organisms. Potential long-term, quasi-steady state regional concentrations of EG estimated with a multi-media model for air, water, soil, and sediment were all less than predicted no effect concentrations (PNECs).

 

[Leeward Rail]

is practically non-toxic to aquatic organisms,

Great find. I was searching for a science paper when you posted.

 

[Rich Stidger]

People engine winterize while still in the water? How is that normally done ? Big bucket of Glycol when motoring to the crane basin? Or put. Glycol in, immediately before hauling?

I may be mis-reading your post.

Flush engines and A/C system with fresh water. Winterize with antifreeze per normal. The yard tows my boat to the lift well. Done.

 

[Davidasailor26]

People engine winterize while still in the water? How is that normally done ? Big bucket of Glycol when motoring to the crane basin? Or put. Glycol in, immediately before hauling?

I may be mis-reading your post.

My current marina uses a tender to push/tow all boats to the lifting well. We just give them the week we want to be hauled out and they pull it over there and haul it sometime during the week. We wouldn’t be able to bring it over on its own power even if we wanted. So the weekend before I just take the intake off the seacock and put it in a bucket of EG (after an oil change).

Our previous marina had owners bring the boat to the lifting well themselves. But they did organize their schedule so owners could do the winterization in the well while the crews were off doing other things, either lunch, blocking boats, or pulling masts.

 

[JamesG161]

EG is a Poison.

Environmental Toxicity is a different thing.

You can just use cheap Vodka to do same thing as EG.

You can use anything to lower the Freezing Point of Water.

Or

just remove the Water.

Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

You can just use cheap Vodka

Then you can make Martini's in the Spring.

You must bring the Olives.

Hic Hic Gulps ....

Jim...

 

[Leeward Rail]

cheap Vodka to do same thing as EG.

Here, even cheap vodka is more expensive.

You can use anything to lower the Freezing Point of Water.

Like moving south.

just remove the Water.

Exactly what a dock neighbour does. Have yet to ask his exact method.

I have used both air and vacuum to empty the portable water tank and lines. Recently bought a new 18volt cordless wet/dry vac for dual duty next year.

 

[Leeward Rail]

You must bring the Olives.

Heathen! Only drink gin and vermouth.. No vodka.

 

[JamesG161]

Heathen! Only drink gin and vermouth

Ok pickled Onions for you then!

Your last name must be...
Gibson

Jim...

 

[dLj]

Heathen! Only drink gin and vermouth.. No vodka.

Snob....

Of course, me, I'm an equal opportunity drinker - does it contain alcohol? I'll have some...

dj

p.s. Wow, we've really helped out the winterization of a 4.108 I see....

 

[JamesG161]

Like moving south.

Of course, only one issue we have here like ...

Hurricane Ian

Jim...

PS: Little Winterization needed down South. More like "Duck and Cover"