These are my experiences replacing the holding tank for a 1995 Hunter 37.5. For those of you considering the purchase of a used 37.5 and have come across this post, don’t let this issue scare you. The boat is wonderful (we're on our 9th season). The original aluminum holding tank, however, is subject to corrosion and will need replacement. BUYING THE TANK Due to a change of heart, I ended up purchasing two replacement holding tanks, only one of which was installed, so I have quite a bit of shopping experience. The first tank was a STOCK Ronco Plastics that was purchased in a rush last summer (2002) when my old tank got its first leak. As a temporary fix though, I was able to patch the old tank with Marine-Tex and that ended up getting me through the rest of the season. The second tank is a larger custom poly tank from C. C. Tech, built to match the dimensions of the original aluminum tank (purchased Feb 2003) and is the one I installed. BOTH SEEM TO BE VERY GOOD TANKS. I obtained the line drawing for the original tank from Hunter. The drawing is attached (I’ve scanned it as a .jpg file, but the resolution suffers due to file size restrictions on this site--you can get a better copy from Hunter). I believe it applies to other years of this model boat, but you should verify your own dimensions. This made ordering the replacement tank easy since I simply faxed the drawing to both Ronco and C. C. Tech and told them to follow it for fittings placement etc. I made one modification and that was to instruct them to weld the brackets flush with the bottom of the tank, rather than 1/4” below. RONCO PLASTICS TANK I ordered the largest stock tank from Ronco Plastics that would fit in the original space without surgery: model B227, a 20 gallon tank. (Ronco may add other appropriate sizes in the future, so please check with them ). Ronco customizes this stock tank to install couplings for inlet, outlet and vent hoses to pretty well match the original locations (including a stand-pipe to the bottom of the tank). In addition, they will weld “hold-down tabs” around the bottom of the tank so that you can easily fasten it to the floor and stringers, just like the aluminum brackets used on the old tank. Ronco also includes a 4” Beckson inspection plate on top. The price of the base stock tank was $105. Customized with all the above and the fittings brought the completed price to $178. This is a fantastic price. Ronco is great to work with, easy to talk to by phone, and the tank shipped in a week. I am impressed with the tank and it is as advertised (to quote Peggie Hall: “strong-walled-roto-molded poly” etc.) The B227 tank is a 20 gallon tank (approx). The original H37.5 tank is 25 gallons (approx). If you choose to go fully custom with Ronco (to match the original Hunter line drawings), the cost is $600 to build the mold and then the additional $180 to purchase the tank equipped as above. They don’t encourage it. Ronco Contact info: http://www.ronco-plastics.com Phone: 714-259-1385 ask for Rich C. C. TECH TANK This company custom-builds. The big differences with Ronco: tank panels are welded (rather than molded in one piece), the tank is made of 3/8” polypropylene (Ronco uses 3/8” polyethylene) and the tank is built to your exact dimensions. The price quoted me to replicate the tank for the H37.5 was $375, which included all the threaded pipe couplings, stand-pipe, Beckson plate and hold-down tabs. It took four weeks to build the tank, and at the time they told me 4-6 weeks. They are easy to work with over the phone. Overall, they built a great tank, but there was one problem I wanted to get corrected. I noticed that the finished tank had a stand-pipe with a sharp bevel at the bottom, and the highest part of the bevel was 2-7/8” above the floor of the tank (in other words, we were going to be sucking air at pump-out when the level got down to 2-3/4” above the floor). This was disappointing since I was losing some capacity—the one thing I was chasing by going to a custom tank. The problem was easily fixed after discussion with C. C. Tech, by gluing on an extension to the stand-pipe using a PVC connector with a squared-off end. BE SURE TO SPECIFY YOUR STAND-PIPE SPACE TO THE TANK FLOOR! C. C. Tech has now made note of that requirement on future tanks for Hunters. The stand-pipe in the RONCO tank was rigged to end 1/2” above the floor of the tank. Peggie recently recommended 1” or so in some other posts. Take your pick. I used 5/8”. The reason C. C. Tech uses polyPROPylene instead of polyethylene is that “it welds ten times better and is easier to fabricate with,” according to Bert, their tech manager. An FAQ including their view of poly vs. poly is on their Web site. Bert also provided comment on the HOW Web site on 4/18/03 in a piece entitled “Polypropylene vs. Polyethylene.” C. C. Tech contact info: http://www.gocctech.com/marine/boat-tank.htm Phone: 401-784-6168 Linda Kleinman for sales. Technical questions ask for Bert. TANK COMMENTS --Both tanks appear to be very well-built. Lesson learned on the stand-pipe issue is to spec *everything* to any manufacturer—don’t leave any dimension open to chance. --If capacity is not an essential concern, for example, if you regularly sail outside the 3-mile limit or have plenty of opportunity to legally discharge, then the smaller and cheaper stock Ronco tank is a great solution. If you have a capacity concern and don’t want to consider options like LectraSan or putting a larger stock tank elsewhere in the boat, then look to a larger custom tank to fit the original space. C. C. Tech, for one, custom-builds a quality poly tank at a reasonable price. --The original Hunter tank had a baffle, neither of the new tanks came with one. C. C. Tech will do one for additional cost. REMOVAL AND INSTALL The original aluminum tank comes out through the access panel in the aft state-room, but only if you saw off the existing aluminum hose connectors flush with the tank first (Sawz-all works great). I had to disconnect and move the manual bilge pump hose out of the way—this hose runs in-between the holding and fuel tanks. Tank fittings such as PVC elbows are screwed in to the couplings on the new tank after it is in place (these tanks are built with screw-couplings welded in place, that are almost flush with the tank walls). Obviously, I’m only speaking of experience on my boat—others may be different. Since you would prefer never to go back in to this area again but you have a grand opportunity while the area is wide open, rehose the entire system while installing the new tank, using Sealand OdorSafe 1-1/2” sanitation hose (per Peggie’s recommendations). The hose is tough to work with so to make it easier, use the custom hose adapters that Sealand makes specifically to go with this hose. The adapters let you use the hose with standard PVC fittings with socket connectors. Part #341513 from Sealand 1-800-321-9886 (ask for sales dept.) They may be available elsewhere, cheaper. Even using the proper Sealand hose adapters, OdorSafe hose is difficult to work with. I used all the tricks: dish-soap, West Marine hose lubricant, my brute strength, another person’s brute strength and in some spots, I gently used a heat-gun to allow the hose to go on a fitting. Rehosing the entire sanitation system was far more difficult and time consuming than the job of replacing the tank, which is what initiated the project. The tank was more or less an easy bolt-in replacement. I also replaced the head and all the sea-water supply hoses to it. This is one job that you might as well do completely so you are done with it for a few years. FINAL COMMENTS --As of this date (May 2003) my new tank is installed and leak-tested, and has been in “production” for one cruise of a few days. I cannot testify yet to the durability of the tank or other components. --Since the failure of aluminum holding tanks is inevitable, shop NOW for your replacement tank if you intend to keep your boat a while. --I take this opportunity to thank Peggie Hall, the “head mistress,” for sharing her wisdom. --I am not an MSD engineer; all of the above is just personal experience and opinion. Brian Leney 5/23/03
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I have only one question
Since the Bay is not "no discharge" (except for a few very small areas immediately off the Bay), why on a 37' boat did you opt for two holding tanks instead of a Lectra/San and one smaller holding tank? Can't be cost...you spent more than half the price of the Lectra/San on the custom tank and hoses.
Since the Bay is not "no discharge" (except for a few very small areas immediately off the Bay), why on a 37' boat did you opt for two holding tanks instead of a Lectra/San and one smaller holding tank? Can't be cost...you spent more than half the price of the Lectra/San on the custom tank and hoses.
Peggy, I think you misread ...
Brian's posting. He only installed one of the tanks, essentially replacing the original one. Also, he's in Annapolis proper where it's no discharge. As we're kind of neighbors and I am facing the same problem on my 37.5, I've been following his progress. I'm farther south (i.e, the "lower income part of the bay") and may take the lectra-san route. Obviously, I'll be getting your advice before long.
Brian's posting. He only installed one of the tanks, essentially replacing the original one. Also, he's in Annapolis proper where it's no discharge. As we're kind of neighbors and I am facing the same problem on my 37.5, I've been following his progress. I'm farther south (i.e, the "lower income part of the bay") and may take the lectra-san route. Obviously, I'll be getting your advice before long.
Annapolis harbor is not "no discharge"
The only NDZs in on the Bay in MD are Herring Bay and the Northern Coastal Bays. See the DNR map of 'em at http://www.dnr.state.md.us/boating/pumpout/ndz.pdf Maybe he did only install one tank, though...after reading his post 3 more times, I still don't know whether he actually had C.C. Tech build a custom tank in addition to the Ronco tank he bought, or only got a quote from 'em.
The only NDZs in on the Bay in MD are Herring Bay and the Northern Coastal Bays. See the DNR map of 'em at http://www.dnr.state.md.us/boating/pumpout/ndz.pdf Maybe he did only install one tank, though...after reading his post 3 more times, I still don't know whether he actually had C.C. Tech build a custom tank in addition to the Ronco tank he bought, or only got a quote from 'em.
EXCELLENT Write-Up!
Brian - that's a really good write-up. The thoroughness is really appreciated. We've looked at some of the newer (to us) *.5 boats but the metal tanks with their difficult to replace aspects, and long hose runs, have left us less than excited. Guess I'm speaking for myself since my wife wouldn't be doing the work. Your write-up shows that it's reasonably possible to replace the tank without loosing too much capacity. I too, wondered about "the second tank" mainly because I was hoping there was a place for additional tankage. Seems like some of the replys have questions and if I had one it would be why didn't you change out the fuel tank at the same time? It's metal too and it's just a matter of time before it springs a leak. We've thought about the Lectra-San but opted to stay with the Raritan II and use fresh water flush instead. Oh, and another question: (1)what head did you change to? (2)and did the handle on the new head interfer with the door? Again - great write-up!
Brian - that's a really good write-up. The thoroughness is really appreciated. We've looked at some of the newer (to us) *.5 boats but the metal tanks with their difficult to replace aspects, and long hose runs, have left us less than excited. Guess I'm speaking for myself since my wife wouldn't be doing the work. Your write-up shows that it's reasonably possible to replace the tank without loosing too much capacity. I too, wondered about "the second tank" mainly because I was hoping there was a place for additional tankage. Seems like some of the replys have questions and if I had one it would be why didn't you change out the fuel tank at the same time? It's metal too and it's just a matter of time before it springs a leak. We've thought about the Lectra-San but opted to stay with the Raritan II and use fresh water flush instead. Oh, and another question: (1)what head did you change to? (2)and did the handle on the new head interfer with the door? Again - great write-up!
John what does the toilet have to do with
whether to replace a holding tank with a Lectra/San? The Lectra/San can be connected to any toilet, even freshwater flush toilets with the addition of an optional salt tank. And what do you mean by "Raritan II and flush with fresh water?" There are 3 Raritan toilets that have a "II" designation--the Compact II, the PH II/PHEII, and the Crown II...and ONLY the Crown II is available in a pressurized flush water model. Or did you mean that you're just pouring water into the bowl instead pumping seawater through the intake? Which wouldn't prevent you from using a Lectra/San, btw.
whether to replace a holding tank with a Lectra/San? The Lectra/San can be connected to any toilet, even freshwater flush toilets with the addition of an optional salt tank. And what do you mean by "Raritan II and flush with fresh water?" There are 3 Raritan toilets that have a "II" designation--the Compact II, the PH II/PHEII, and the Crown II...and ONLY the Crown II is available in a pressurized flush water model. Or did you mean that you're just pouring water into the bowl instead pumping seawater through the intake? Which wouldn't prevent you from using a Lectra/San, btw.
yup, It's a Raritan PHII
Peggy, The correct model number of the Raritan model we replaced the old SeaLand with is the Raritan PHII (vice the "PH" that I wrote) so hopefully that clarifies that. Because it was a standard size the bowl from the SeaLand head was re-used on the Raritan saving a few bucks. We are currently just pouring water into the bowl using a gallon jug but one plan is to connect the head to a dedicated fresh-water tank. The intent is to prevent salt buildup in the hoses and to try to keep the rim of the bowl from building up with decayed matter. A fringe benefit would be to free up a through-hull valve and maybe have a second raw-water source for the engine in the event the first one plugs with eel grass or some other junk. Our boat (H-35) has only one head location so we opted for just the manual head. As it was explained to me the Lectra/San requires some salt in the water to perform it's function but that was a few years ago. There may have been some other issues, like the processing tank must be downhill? [slight issue], cost, current requirements, or ? but I don't recall the details. Maybe by relocating my waterlift muffler aft a tad I could create some room for the Lectra/San box but the hose from the engine to the muffler is not very flexible. There is also a structural grid item that might be in the way of being able to install the tank down low. The plus is this would extend the time between pumpouts. Electrical power is not a real problem for me anymore as it once was. Considering that it was just a few years ago that Lin and Larry Pardey were using an oak bucket and I was reading their books at the time when I made this changeover, the step up from a SeaLand 762 (or something like that) with the push-pull system to the Raritan with a lever handle was a significant improvement. Sailboats have come a long way in the past few decades with synthetic materials for sail cloth and lines, winches, extruded aluminum masts, roller furling, engines (only a few years ago a sailboat with an engine was called an "auxiliary"), lots of electrical power, refrigeration, fiberglass construction, and now decent heads.
Peggy, The correct model number of the Raritan model we replaced the old SeaLand with is the Raritan PHII (vice the "PH" that I wrote) so hopefully that clarifies that. Because it was a standard size the bowl from the SeaLand head was re-used on the Raritan saving a few bucks. We are currently just pouring water into the bowl using a gallon jug but one plan is to connect the head to a dedicated fresh-water tank. The intent is to prevent salt buildup in the hoses and to try to keep the rim of the bowl from building up with decayed matter. A fringe benefit would be to free up a through-hull valve and maybe have a second raw-water source for the engine in the event the first one plugs with eel grass or some other junk. Our boat (H-35) has only one head location so we opted for just the manual head. As it was explained to me the Lectra/San requires some salt in the water to perform it's function but that was a few years ago. There may have been some other issues, like the processing tank must be downhill? [slight issue], cost, current requirements, or ? but I don't recall the details. Maybe by relocating my waterlift muffler aft a tad I could create some room for the Lectra/San box but the hose from the engine to the muffler is not very flexible. There is also a structural grid item that might be in the way of being able to install the tank down low. The plus is this would extend the time between pumpouts. Electrical power is not a real problem for me anymore as it once was. Considering that it was just a few years ago that Lin and Larry Pardey were using an oak bucket and I was reading their books at the time when I made this changeover, the step up from a SeaLand 762 (or something like that) with the push-pull system to the Raritan with a lever handle was a significant improvement. Sailboats have come a long way in the past few decades with synthetic materials for sail cloth and lines, winches, extruded aluminum masts, roller furling, engines (only a few years ago a sailboat with an engine was called an "auxiliary"), lots of electrical power, refrigeration, fiberglass construction, and now decent heads.
Was pretty sure that's what you'd say...
just wanted to make sure. The Lectra/San does indeed need salt...but it doesn't have to be the salt in sea water, or even sea salt. In fact, if you're willing to put up with the aggravation, you can even pour table salt down the toilet (one of the optional salt tanks adds salt as needed automatically. And the only location restrictions are: within 6' of the toilet, inlet (which is at the bottom) at or below the level of the toilet discharge. It discharges by overflowing out the top, and since at least one vented loop would be required if either the toilet or the L/S is below the waterline anyway. You might want to go to the Raritan website and read all about it...'cuz it's easier to install than you think. Marine sanitation equipment HAS come a long way since the days of "bucket and chuck it"...and most of the progress has been forward. Btw, what are you doing here instead of out on your boat?
just wanted to make sure. The Lectra/San does indeed need salt...but it doesn't have to be the salt in sea water, or even sea salt. In fact, if you're willing to put up with the aggravation, you can even pour table salt down the toilet (one of the optional salt tanks adds salt as needed automatically. And the only location restrictions are: within 6' of the toilet, inlet (which is at the bottom) at or below the level of the toilet discharge. It discharges by overflowing out the top, and since at least one vented loop would be required if either the toilet or the L/S is below the waterline anyway. You might want to go to the Raritan website and read all about it...'cuz it's easier to install than you think. Marine sanitation equipment HAS come a long way since the days of "bucket and chuck it"...and most of the progress has been forward. Btw, what are you doing here instead of out on your boat?
List is Getting Longer - not Shorter!
Peggy - my list of things to do seems to be getting longer - not shorter! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. These items either don't get on the list or go to the bottom of the list, unless, of course, they are re-prioritized by the Admiral. Been working on the house and the jobs are going much slower than anticipated.
Peggy - my list of things to do seems to be getting longer - not shorter! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. These items either don't get on the list or go to the bottom of the list, unless, of course, they are re-prioritized by the Admiral. Been working on the house and the jobs are going much slower than anticipated.
List never gets shorter, just changes
The folks at DIY magazine gave me a T-shirt...truer words were never spoken that those written on it: "Sooner or later everything on a boat will get bent, break, burst, chafe, chip, crack, corrode, decay, delaminate, fade, fail, leak, mildew, rip, rot, rust, shatter, or stink." The best any boat owner can hope for is to be able to delay as much as possible for as long as possible with good preventive maintenance and repair or replace what can't be prevented or wears out. Just keeping up is a never-ending list. The good news, no boat owner can ever claim he has nothing to do...'cuz there's always something that needs attention that can be done even if it's pouring rain.
The folks at DIY magazine gave me a T-shirt...truer words were never spoken that those written on it: "Sooner or later everything on a boat will get bent, break, burst, chafe, chip, crack, corrode, decay, delaminate, fade, fail, leak, mildew, rip, rot, rust, shatter, or stink." The best any boat owner can hope for is to be able to delay as much as possible for as long as possible with good preventive maintenance and repair or replace what can't be prevented or wears out. Just keeping up is a never-ending list. The good news, no boat owner can ever claim he has nothing to do...'cuz there's always something that needs attention that can be done even if it's pouring rain.
More from Brian
Here's my answers to some of the queries in this thread--and thanks, btw, for the comments. Sorry for the confusion in the number of tanks, but indeed, I only installed **one** of the two tanks that I purchased, just as it says in the second paragraph. I had C.C. Tech build a custom-tank to match the original and I simply replaced the original aluminum tank with that tank, in the exact same location. My only problems with my old system were the aluminum tank and the permeated hoses, so that's what I fixed. The original system had worked flawlessly and nicely met our needs for 7.5 seasons, so I felt I did not need to reengineer it. Did I waste some money by not using the first tank I purchased (the stock Ronco)? Sure, but it was peanuts compared to other boat expenses and if anyone is looking for a stock Ronco tank for a 37.5...... As for LectraSan, I did give it some thought. In summary, I love the technical concept, but not the implementation for my particular circumstances: --There was nowhere w'in 6 feet of head, same level or below, for it to easily go; --I would need the optional salt-feed system since I sail in "brackish" water, eesh, more complexity; --maintenance using gallons of muriatic acid solution is a turn-off; --massive (but short-duration) and frequent current draws on my small house battery bank were going to be problematic unless I upgraded the house-bank (more time and $$) --I have a 2.5 year old daughter, and I need to keep the system simple (like "just pump the handle sweetie and don't touch anything else") --given it's mix of electrical and salt-water plumbing components, I see the system having a relatively short-life span before problems arise --I avoid anything complex on my boat if possible (no refrigeration, no windlass, no chart-plotter,....) others may be more inclined. Why not replace fuel tank at same time too? I've not heard much about that yet as evidenced by lack of much discussion on fuel tank replacement on this site (anyone?). Those tanks should last much longer since they don't have to contain nearly the corrosive power of urine. If the time comes, it should be an easy switch (on a 37.5) esp since it has nowhere near the plumbing requirements of a holding tank. It sits next door to the holding tank and will use the same access hatch for replacement. Replacement head used? I replaced it with the identical Jabsco head that was already there. Again, the old one worked perfectly for 8 seasons, and all the bolts lined up identically, the cost was $105,--no brainer! I only hope the new one will have the longevity of the old, but at that price..... Now let's go sailing.
Here's my answers to some of the queries in this thread--and thanks, btw, for the comments. Sorry for the confusion in the number of tanks, but indeed, I only installed **one** of the two tanks that I purchased, just as it says in the second paragraph. I had C.C. Tech build a custom-tank to match the original and I simply replaced the original aluminum tank with that tank, in the exact same location. My only problems with my old system were the aluminum tank and the permeated hoses, so that's what I fixed. The original system had worked flawlessly and nicely met our needs for 7.5 seasons, so I felt I did not need to reengineer it. Did I waste some money by not using the first tank I purchased (the stock Ronco)? Sure, but it was peanuts compared to other boat expenses and if anyone is looking for a stock Ronco tank for a 37.5...... As for LectraSan, I did give it some thought. In summary, I love the technical concept, but not the implementation for my particular circumstances: --There was nowhere w'in 6 feet of head, same level or below, for it to easily go; --I would need the optional salt-feed system since I sail in "brackish" water, eesh, more complexity; --maintenance using gallons of muriatic acid solution is a turn-off; --massive (but short-duration) and frequent current draws on my small house battery bank were going to be problematic unless I upgraded the house-bank (more time and $$) --I have a 2.5 year old daughter, and I need to keep the system simple (like "just pump the handle sweetie and don't touch anything else") --given it's mix of electrical and salt-water plumbing components, I see the system having a relatively short-life span before problems arise --I avoid anything complex on my boat if possible (no refrigeration, no windlass, no chart-plotter,....) others may be more inclined. Why not replace fuel tank at same time too? I've not heard much about that yet as evidenced by lack of much discussion on fuel tank replacement on this site (anyone?). Those tanks should last much longer since they don't have to contain nearly the corrosive power of urine. If the time comes, it should be an easy switch (on a 37.5) esp since it has nowhere near the plumbing requirements of a holding tank. It sits next door to the holding tank and will use the same access hatch for replacement. Replacement head used? I replaced it with the identical Jabsco head that was already there. Again, the old one worked perfectly for 8 seasons, and all the bolts lined up identically, the cost was $105,--no brainer! I only hope the new one will have the longevity of the old, but at that price..... Now let's go sailing.
Sealand hose replacement
I too just replaced the waste hose(w/Sealand) from the head to the holding tank, but I didn't use the grey barbed hose connectors that are murder to put on. Instead I went to my local hardware store and bought the white translucent fittings they use on houshold plumbing. This stuff is slightly smaller in diameter and fits easily into the Sealand hose. Just add clamps and 'voila'.
I too just replaced the waste hose(w/Sealand) from the head to the holding tank, but I didn't use the grey barbed hose connectors that are murder to put on. Instead I went to my local hardware store and bought the white translucent fittings they use on houshold plumbing. This stuff is slightly smaller in diameter and fits easily into the Sealand hose. Just add clamps and 'voila'.
You have some misconceptions about the Lectra/San
Which I need to address--not to change your mind, but for the benefit of others: Cleaning with muriatic acid is at most only needed annually in most waters (2-3 times a year in tropical waters). It's a simple job...just mix it in a plastic bucket and pour it down the toilet according to directions. Cleaning is all the maintenance required. It doesn't complicate flushing the toilet. Electric toilets are wired to start it when the toilet is flushed...an optional sensor will even recognize "incoming" from a manual toilet and start the unit automatically. As for durability without problems, the average trouble-free lifespan a properly installed, operated and maintained Lectra/San is about 20 years. It's been around for nearly 30 years and quite a few of the original units are still in service. Although the Lectra/San does consume 1.7 AH per treatment cycle, there are ways to conserve power.
Which I need to address--not to change your mind, but for the benefit of others: Cleaning with muriatic acid is at most only needed annually in most waters (2-3 times a year in tropical waters). It's a simple job...just mix it in a plastic bucket and pour it down the toilet according to directions. Cleaning is all the maintenance required. It doesn't complicate flushing the toilet. Electric toilets are wired to start it when the toilet is flushed...an optional sensor will even recognize "incoming" from a manual toilet and start the unit automatically. As for durability without problems, the average trouble-free lifespan a properly installed, operated and maintained Lectra/San is about 20 years. It's been around for nearly 30 years and quite a few of the original units are still in service. Although the Lectra/San does consume 1.7 AH per treatment cycle, there are ways to conserve power.
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