356 Foresail performance problems

[Jimongee]

Hello folks,
My boat is a 2002 356. It has the original foresail 110. From an appearance standpoint it is in very good condition. However for this second season in a row on the Great Lakes we can not get it to perform like its younger days. I'll use an approx 10kt breeze to illustrate my problem. On a pinch or close reach it is useless. On a reach its even a bit difficult to keep it full and on a reach or beam when the inboard tell tales are good the outboard are swirling. This is even worse with the main up too. I am thinking that the sail is finally stretched to a point that it is way out of spec. Question is this possible? Second let's say I end up replacing it... what is the largest jib I could safely sail on this boat? We do not race but we do plenty of cruising. And lastly I personally tuned the rig mast down and mast up sailing to Selden specs. Thanks for any help with this one. SV SamiDog-Boyne City, MI

 

[Kings Gambit]

Two things initially. Was the "original" sail actually cut for that boat--do you know its history--or buy the boat new? Second, when reaching w/the headsail eased out some you should be trimming to the outside tell-tales first. So, what you are describing is ass-backwards & suggests over-trimming. Outside should be good; inside less so if uneven on that eased out trim. Also, take to a sail maker or get him/her on the boat to check your sheeting & car settings b/f deciding to get a new one. S/he might be able to "tune it up some" if stretched.

 

[Jimongee]

Thanks. Yes it is the original unaltered production sail that came with the boat when it was new. I bought her from a close friend so the history is accurate. Regarding trimming, I have tried every combination n various wind speed. It simply does not perform like earlier seasons. I suspect gradual stretching over the years has changed the shape until it's at its worst finally. Do you think I could be on the right problem solving track?

 

[Parsons]

The short answer -- time to buy a new sail.

I had similar problems with my new-to-me Catalina 36 using the original (1999) sails - could not trim well, sail closer than 45 degrees to windward, excess heel, etc. Although I knew the answer already from having raced on others' boats, I spent a couple hours sailing with a locally-known, trusted rep from a sail loft who confirmed my fears and explained the reasons a little more scientifically. The original sails on production boats are the cheapest cross-cut fabric they can buy. For the first couple of years, they work fine and the new owners are happy. The fabric stretches so much that they no longer form that nice wing shape we all love, and are just a balloon of cloth that heels the boat without providing forward thrust. I also cruise, and am considering the occasional beer-can race. I chose to go to a smaller headsail (140%) for ease of single- / short-handing. The sailmaker says that this will cost me 0.2 or 0.3 knots in anything except very light (under 6 knots) breezes. This seems a good balance considering our local winds. Seems that Northern Michigan has similar or higher average winds compared to Saginaw Bay, so perhaps your should consider that. To answer your "how big" question: your boat will qualify to race, and was probably designed for up to a 155% Genoa. You probably should not go over that percentage for structural reasons, but you will do better with new smaller genoa than the old one you're using now.

I strongly suggest asking around for a trusted local rep for a sail loft and take him for a sail before the weather changes. Explain how you intend to use the sail, your normal crew size, and how long you want to sail to last. Have them explain what they are seeing, and what they can do for you. A replacement of what you have now will cost 3-4 K, and a cruising laminate will cost about 6-7 K, depending on the deals the sail maker offers. The laminate will hold its shape longer.

 

[shemandr]

Could you take some pictures?
On a beam reach I wouldn't expect the tell tails to all fly - unless you have a reaching strut or pole the clew out. To answer some of your questions: Yes, it is possible and even likely that the sail is "Out of spec" at it's age -14 years old. As for the largest sail you could fly - the boat is set up for the 110%. If you put a larger jib on you would have to put new carts on in order to trim it. The 356 carts are on the cabin top and sheet inward of the shrouds. With a larger jib you would have to sheet outward of the shroud. That would be a wider sheeting angle and would harm windward performance. I know of at least on Hunter with the B&R rig who has done this. But it was for racing.
When you say the jib is useless pinching what do you mean? Does it lack power? I don't understand how it doesn't fill unless you are luffing. Do you mean it luffs prematurely? The 356 shouldn't be sailed in a pinch mode. It is possible to overtrim the jib causing a loss of power.
Sorry about the disjointed message - busy this am.

 

[Jimongee]

Thanks for all the information. Yes it luffa prematurely. I think from all the responses and my own knowledge and the sail age factor I am going to take your advice and work with a local loft and replace the current seniority sail with a new 110....this after we re-measure the rig.

 

[chuckwayne]

Anything larger than a 122 won't clear the stays with the stock tracks. you could, in theory, add deck mounted tracks like the 36, but you'd lose pointing capability. with decent sails, the 356 is well balanced with the 110

 

[jeff356]

Have the same model only 2003 and have similar issue with what I think is excessive heeling in certain wind conditions with sails reefed if necessary. Also have the original UK sails with furling main and would be interested in your feedback if you have your sails recut or replaced.
Can point fairly high at a good speed but heels more than I think it should. On a reach with the jib sheeted out it does not fly well and am trying many adjustments with sheeting, cars, boom position, etc.
Have you had your sails inspected by a sail loft, might shed some light.
Please let us know if you find an improvement.

Jeff
sv LegaSea

 

[shemandr]

Have you tried poling the clew out? The sheeting angle is fairly narrow on this boat. When the wind is abeam the luff of the sail can have a good angle of attack with the sheet eased. But because the jib car pulls the clew in making a deep shape for the sail, stall develops on both sides of the sail. I would guess the stall is greater than the drive. If you pole the clew out the sail will have approximately its designed shape and will provide drive and less stall. As an alternative rig a short sheet to the rail and trim with it.
As for reefing the main due to heel, I found that the outhaul for the main (To unfurl it) was too stretchy with the original line. I replaced it with a high quality, ultra low stretch line and the boat behavior improved significantly. I had to have a rigger come to the boat to install it because it was a continuous loop. After, I did notice the sail itself stretched in gusts and we all know the cure for that. A trim trick I used was to ease the main sheet and pull the traveler up. This would put more twist in the main and depower it. It also lowered the CE which helped reduce heel. In the last couple of seasons with the boat I would be more likely to let the main sheet out in gusts than drop the traveler. The boat doesn't like a lot of heel and the rudder will load up and even stall. Not a fun way to sail!
I came to regard the boat as a "Dock Girl" and she likes 7-12 knots. Especially with that rotten furling mainsail. I would have liked to try the boat with a real (Roachy) main and slab reefing. But I sold her.