30-40 degrees; too much heeling?

[Jared1048]

I've read somewhere that 25-28 degrees heel is the most you should have without being in-efficient in the boats hull going through the water. Over this last weekend though I had it between 30-40 degrees and had the boat beating at a constant 7.0 - 7.4 knots which was more than I'd ever been able to get before. The apparent wind was 17-20 mph and had some small choppy waters enough to send water splashing almost back to cockpit.

So I have a couple questions..

1. What's your boats "sweet" spot range of heel (at your personal best for speed)?
2. What's your fastest beating speed you'd been able to keep?
3. How new are your sails?
4. What size genoa do you have?


As always, thanks for all the great feedback!

Cheers,
-Jared

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

People have written books about these issues. About all I would add is that you consider at 40 deg, you have a huge sideways vector. You may be going fast but not in the direction you think.

 

[kappykaplan]

If your toe rail is in the water, you're wasting too much energy. You also probably have too much weather helm, wasting energy with the rudder fighting the boat's urge to round up into the wind.

 

[Manny]

35-40 degrees seems like a lot of heel. On my 27 I can't bury the rails, the boat will round up right before that point. My boat seems to prefer sailing flat, 15 degrees is about the sweet spot. That being said the fastest speed I was ever able to sustain (without being influenced by tides) was 7.4 knots in 20 knot winds on genoa only. Boat was well balanced and I don't think it went over 25 degrees. Not sure of the genoa size, never measured but I guess it's 135 or 150.

M

 

[Bill Roosa]

Less is better. Racing boats have movable keels to help then sail more upright. When going to windward you should be able to maintain hull speed in 17-20 knots of wind BUT you will need different gears (aka sails for the purpose) or reef. In this case you have plenty of wind but too much canvas, hence the heel.
I prefer 15 deg max
My sails are fairly old
Genny is 115
Also, I'd agree with Don, you are bookin across the water but not in the direction you think you are. Check the compass against the GPS COG or check landmarks. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say you have like 20 degrees of sideslip. Making the assumption that you also have 30 degrees apparent wind that is a tack angle of 100 degrees (20+30)*2. Not too bad but if you reduce sail, stand the boat up the side slip could drop to 5 degrees and that gives you (5+30)*2 = 70 degrees tack angle. You do less tacking and spend less time beating (I think there is a reason they call it beating BTW) if you stand the boat up as a general rule.
Provided there is sufficient wind (> 6 knots true for my 40.5) I can sustain hull speed up to around 30 degrees apparent. Waves factor in also

 

[robertsapp]

I think I heard somewhere that it depends on the design of your boat. Boats from the 70's and 80's that were designed to IOR rules tried to "cheat" the rating system with large bow and stern overhangs. In that case, heel is good because as the boat heels, more of the overhang gets wet, increasing the boat's effective waterline length and thus its maximum hull speed. Newer designs with more plump bows and reverse or scoop sterns maintain a fairly constant waterline length when they heel, so I believe anything beyond about 15 degrees costs you speed. Or so I've been told.

 

[Benny17441]

By which means did you measure your speed when you were beating a constant 7+ knots? I had our trailerable Starwind 223 beating at 8.5 knots as measured over the ground by GPS.

 

[CBIsailor]

I can't contribute much but in my experience, a flat boat is a fast boat but then again "Plowing vertically"
Is awesome.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

My comments would be that sailing a boat flat is faster. In a blow it is better to put more crew on the high side and keep the boat flat and leave the sails up (not reefing too fast). This applies mostly to racing boats that are more nimble than cruising boats, of course. Some designs are such that heeling cannot be avoided (like some Seidelmann early boats, as one example), but they become stable once they found that solid point. 10-15 degrees is usually the rule of thumb for most boats, I think. Beyond that you need more meat on the weather rail, or need to decrease sail area. It was mentioned above that some boat designs "cheated" the rules. This was because rules were compiled due to static water lines (when the boat is at rest). Designers would creat longer overhangs in some cases and more tumble home in others, so that when the boat heeled, the waterline increase, which directly attributes to speed (the more water line the more speed potential), but still you didn't want the boat to heel excessively. Now designers increase waterlines with plumber bows, etc. The San Juan 24 was a hot MORC boat in its day and then the 4Q rule was instituted and so the SJ 24 designers made a change to the transom overhang to help enhance the boat to the new change. The Creekmore 23 was such an animal with a very long aft over hang especially designed to compete with the 4Q rule. Lee Creekmore's very successful Creekmore 22 won the MORC nationals, but that was prior to the 4Q ruling. His 23 design was to accommodate that. Just think of the America's Cup competition. The boats since 1851 were slanted much in America's favor until 1958 when they introduced the 12 meter boat. They weren't 12 meters long, but various measurement and other data were fed into a mathematical equation where the product had to be 12 meters. So, there were some variance in the boats. The biggest thing is this was before computer testing and so they learned that 12 meters weren't all that fast afterall. But, did that matter? Computers have changed a lot of boats. I digress.

 

[jtm]

So where abouts were your jib cars - forward or back near the winch. At low wind levels cars forward do help and make the wind run further around a rounded jib. Back the cars as wind builds.

Secondly, where was your traveler??? Prolly should set it to windward, higher than middle of the track- it puts a twist in the main and will allow wind to spill out the top and should improve your ride- also is your main's outhaul tensioned enough as wind builds- youwant it flatter. The main's rake is a good point made- too much load on the rudder is just alot of stress and effort to achieve a nice balance.

 

[Jared1048]

Jib cars were back keeping the shape as flat as possible as you mentioned. The travelor was down pretty far and my main was slightly luffing. Main was also pretty tight.

Speed was from boats instruments and not gps. In either case it was the fastest I've ever been.

I've noticed that my boat likes to heel over then sits in a grove. The previous owner said it was designed that way. Something about a light keel ballest ratio?