2 Forestays on My V25?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Apr 29, 2012
233
Macgregor Venture 25 Council Bluffs, IA
Top of my to do list this spring is setup my FF2 Roller Furler and Geneoa. So I'm thinking about the other sails that I have that are hank on. And actually deciding which is the best to convert for the furller sail. Maybe the geneoa that I have is too big to be used with a furller.

So my thought is setting up the boat with 2 forestays. Seems like I have read about this being done. But can not find any info on how to rig it up. Is this something I can, or even should do? How would I even set them up? Side by side or one in front?

Any input? Maybe not even a good idea IDK.

Here are a couple of the geneoa's that I have. I'd like to have the smaller one on the furller, and be able to carry the big one.
 

Attachments

Feb 20, 2011
8,059
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
With the right luff tape, yes, the smaller foresail would likely be your furling sail. It seems that the larger decksweeper would need cutting down.

Two headstays, both attached at the bow chainplate? Could make for some difficulty when tacking upwind, but might be do-able for a spinnaker going DW.


Bowsprit? :D
 
Apr 29, 2012
233
Macgregor Venture 25 Council Bluffs, IA
Two headstays, both attached at the bow chainplate? Could make for some difficulty when tacking upwind, but might be do-able for a spinnaker going DW.


Bowsprit? :D

That's what I was wondering about. Seems to me like the second forestay would get in the way, but I think I have read that others have done it.

Is a Bowsprit the way it is done? That seems like way overkill for what I am trying to do. Maybe better just decide on a furller sail and be done.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
We now have the option of running 2 forestays with our old hank-on sails on the inner one that lays against the mast unless it is in use. We have the means, but haven't tried it out yet. There is more description of what we did on the following page of the double bow roller install here...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-17.html

You can see the...



...old forestay hanging behind the new furler above (that is not how it attaches ;)). It attaches...



...to the bracket above, behind the furler and between the bow rollers.

I'd like to get a smaller storm jib to run there and I'd also like to run our old jib or genoa opposite the furler sail running at some point with one sail on a wisker pole,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
I was thinking the same thing. Since mine is not OEM, my shrouds are masthead. My forestay is fractional. I was thinking of a Johnson lever on the lower forestay that can be released if the upper forestay going to the masthead needs to be used. The lower forestay can be for a storm jib and the upper for a roller furling Genny. I was thinking a block at the bottom of the mast could handle the lower forestay when stowed with a deck connection to keep tension on it so it doesn't hit the mast. I can't draw it here but picture a hook or block 4-6 inches forward of the mast, the lower forestay could be hooked and the remaining length would grab a deck hook for tension to keep it from hitting the mast.

In a storm, you would have the added security of a second forestay.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I was thinking the same thing. Since mine is not OEM, my shrouds are masthead. My forestay is fractional. I was thinking of a Johnson lever on the lower forestay that can be released if the upper forestay going to the masthead needs to be used. The lower forestay can be for a storm jib and the upper for a roller furling Genny. I was thinking a block at the bottom of the mast could handle the lower forestay when stowed with a deck connection to keep tension on it so it doesn't hit the mast. I can't draw it here but picture a hook or block 4-6 inches forward of the mast, the lower forestay could be hooked and the remaining length would grab a deck hook for tension to keep it from hitting the mast.

In a storm, you would have the added security of a second forestay.
I'm confused a little. Are you saying that right now your shrouds go to the top of the mast, but the current forestay doesn't? Normally the shrouds and the forestay go to the same point as they are opposing forces.

If you have the upper forestay in place all the time (ours is this way with the furler on it), you don't need to tension the bottom one when not in use. Ours is just bungee cord to the mast.

I made the bracket to attach the inner forestay to the anchor roller mount, but some use a pad eye on the deck with a backing plate below the deck. You could tension it with the Johnson Lever but I think those with the pad eye just run the forestay looser as it isn't holding the mast up. I use the bracket I made with a lever to tension it some but don't think that is needed to just run the sail on it,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The shape and thus sailing performance of jibs/genoas is directly dependent on the TENSION in the stay to which its attached. With two forestays and single backstay and that backstay under normal tension, each forestay will be operating at HALF tension. Unless you arrange so that you can 'release' or 'ease' tension in the forestay not being used or are able to 'double' the tension in the backstay you will inevitably have 'sailing problems'. Doubling tension in the backstay will increase the vulnerability for fatigue failure of that stay - sudden catastrophic failure.
Normal tension in rigging wire is ~15% tension (most jibs/genoas are designed expecting the forestay to be at ~15% tension); fatigue failure rapidly proceeds in stainless steel rigging when tensioned above 30%.

Note: With a forestay at ~7% tension and when attempting to "beat to windward", most boats will heel over aggressively and will begin to skid off to leeward and will have great difficulty in 'pointing ability'; plus, the rudder during a skid can develop lots of 'side pressure' which may lead to the rudder 'ventilating' with air ... and you then can totally lose all rudder control as a worst case scenario.

For simplicity and good sail shape/performance, suggest you 'convert' either to all hanks or alter one sail such that both sails can be used interchangeably on a furler ---- using ONE forestay.

;-)))
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
When a boat owner reaches the point that he starts to experiment with his rig, he starts into areas of sailing that have little sources to refer for guidance. Most of my experience with a double headsail has come from actual testing as well as studying old sailboat pictures of the 17th and 18th century. Today the universal production rig is the marconi or bemuda rig, but there was a time when these rigs were not used by all sailors.

The early Netherlanders were the most advanced sailing people, they ruled the seas until the English displaced them in a couple of epic sea battles. Until that time, the Dutch sailboats were known for having multiple headsails, and I have seen pictures of sailboats from that era that had bowsprites that exceeded the length of the hull. The effort to fill in the foretriangle resulted in very strangely shaped sails, sails flown without stays, etc.

How does this relate to our simple rigs? If you want to fly more sail area, it is quite possible to increase forward sail area, most easily by installing some kind of sprite. Remember that you are stepping into sail rig designs that required skilled, observant sailors capable of going forward and adjusting the rig to suit conditions. The idea that a crew would stay in the cockpit was not an option for these sailors.

If you have a fractional rig, the upper portion of the mast above the hounds can be thought of as extra materials to work with, while the portion of the mast below the hounds is the basic, backup rig. If one leads a new forestay from the masthead to the stem fitting, you will indeed be able to fly a sail on the new forestay. This will be best accomplished by installing an adjustable backstay, as the conditions you will flying a new and larger sail will probably require loosening the backstay to make the foresail fuller. You will not have a much larger sail going to the masthead this way. Note that the aft upper stays oppose the tension on the original forestay, the events involved above the hounds have little effect on the original forestay on a correctly tensioned rig.

A word about wire rigging. The fail limits of wire cable far exceeds our usual tensions, and most failures have easily seen evidence that can be found if inspected. I base this on experience as an aircraft mechanic, as a hang glider instructor, and a sailboat inspector. The worst damage I have seen to wire cable involved instantaneous shock loads of crashing student hang gliders. Even then, elongation and broken wires were easily seen. One could make a case that running a second forestay makes the basic rig stronger.

Forestay tension: consider that the foresails on the Cutty Sark were free flown, that is the sail were attached to lines that were run up, there was no inner stay and no hanks. This idea allows multiple sails to be flown across any two points capable of sustaining the load.

So I say go for it, I have. My 4 foot sprite allows huge sails to be flown on my 26D. I do pull on a lot of tension on my adjustable backstay. The interaction between the 3 sails is even more complex that a single headsail. I have extremely long sheets to allow the forward sail clew to go all the way around the boat as a lazy sheet. I lead the foremost sail sheets all the way back to the aft deck cleats. The boats makes way in the slightest breeze, almost making wind to the bewilderment of other sailboats that cannot move. Yes I have to remove the extra sail area as the wind increases, but what a great difference in sailing ability. I have recut the humongous genoa from a 36 foot donor sailboat to have a Yankee foot, which makes the original working jib more effective, while increasing effort in the foretriangle.
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Early testing. This sprite is a piece of hang glider tubing. Testing on a light wind day.....
 

Attachments

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
..and that backstay under normal tension...;-)))
Rich most of our boats are fractional rigged so the backstay isn't really tensioned against the forestay. The shrouds are. Not saying we should pull the backstay off as it does help in some instances like orena123 pointed out.

If we ran the second forestay and sail it would be in light winds while running and not beating into the wind.

I haven't seen it in real life, but have read of using an inner forestay on a pad eye with a small storm jib on it. I wonder how much tension people are able to put on that forestay in that situation. I've also seen adds for the gennaker...

http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/gennaker__code_0_furlers/continuous_line/default.asp

... furlers that I though were put on and off as needed.

If you are actually trying to rig the boat to be a cutter then I agree that things have better been well thought out,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 
Nov 19, 2011
1,489
MacGregor 26S Hampton, VA
To clarify, I don't have a 28 foot mast, mine is 26' but I used the MacGregor forestay so my rig is like a 7/8 rig. I used my clipper shrouds and my clipper back stay. I can't see it now but if memory serves me, my forestay is about 3' from the top or less.

The forestay lands between the upper and lower shrouds so I am not pulling anything out of whack and my back stay of course goes to the top (I fly a Mac sized jib and a clipper size main). I keep tension on my rear stay. This is why it wouldn't hurt to add an upper forestay. Even if I don't sail it, it can give me added security. Plus, if I ever get a spinnaker. I can run a masthead spinnaker.

She sails as good as any other Mac when the bottom is clean. Watching the forestay bend when the jib is loaded scares me a little but you may tell me that's normal. I just never looked at anyone else's to know if its normal. I would however like to add a big ok genny on a roller furling for the low wind days on the Chesapeake.
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Rich most of our boats are fractional rigged so the backstay isn't really tensioned against the forestay. The shrouds are. Not saying we should pull the backstay off as it does help in some instances like orena123 pointed out.

If we ran the second forestay and sail it would be in light winds while running and not beating into the wind.

I haven't seen it in real life, but have read of using an inner forestay on a pad eye with a small storm jib on it. I wonder how much tension people are able to put on that forestay in that situation. I've also seen adds for the gennaker...

http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/gennaker__code_0_furlers/continuous_line/default.asp

... furlers that I though were put on and off as needed.

If you are actually trying to rig the boat to be a cutter then I agree that things have better been well thought out,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

Doesnt matter if fractional or mast head as two forestays will require a backstay to be loaded to approx. 30% (or the proportional difference of their attachment points along the mast) to obtain an approximate 15% wire tension in each forestay. Swept back spreaders which slightly share the forestay load with the backstay dont make all that much difference ... the B&R backstayless rig is the exception.

The key here is that a forestay should be operating at about 15% of wire tension to support the designed shape of 'most' jibs/genoas for sailing in 'normal' wind conditions. If you have TWO forward stays, each will share 1/2 of the 'load' of the support/reaction system.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Rich the M doesn't even have a backstay and the others don't need the backstay, with the exception when running or if you are putting a bend into the top of the mast. I have our rig tensioned much higher that most Mac owners and it is all against the shrouds. I used a loos gauge and don't have the numbers here with me, but think the forestay was about 300 and the shrouds about 330.

These are trailer boats and most owners have them were they can pull the mast up and pin them without loading them further, which is way below the 15% rule. We use a Johnson lever to always have the same tension and that tension is much more than before when we used the mast raising system.

I agree with your thoughts if we were talking about a larger boat or a true cutter rig where you might be running 2 head sails at any time, but for our little boats that go on and off the trailer I think we can experiment a little more, like John has above, without worry but each individual has to decide what they feel good about,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 

Kestle

.
Jun 12, 2011
702
MacGregor 25 San Pedro
I am now running an inner forestay, that uses the a block with the line run backwards (it goes over the block from the outside and comes down to the head from the mast side) which gives it a bit of spacing away from the furler.

The foot is attached to a piece of webbing that runs around the stantions and hull twice (to minimize movement) and thru the bow loop. Another line runs between the two ends, which are loops on the first line and attach to the sail, and is being cleated as I play with the best position to run the inner sail. Eventually, I'll make a backing plate and mount it permanently when I get it to the best position.

BTW, doing these adjustments solo is guaranteed to get the USCG's attention. I did it in light air/no waves and had two of their boats keeping an eye on me. It probably did look goofy.

My intent is to have a sail bag at the mast with the sheets/halyards/sail attached and ready to go for Catalina Island crossings. We can get big wind, and I have a 150 on the bow furler.

Jeff
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I haven't seen it in real life, but have read of using an inner forestay on a pad eye with a small storm jib on it. I wonder how much tension people are able to put on that forestay in that situation. I've also seen adds for the gennaker...


Sum
Sum,

Here is what you are talking about, on a Pogo 12.50 that we chartered last month in Greece. The removable babystay is designed to hold a heavy weather jib, what the French call a Solent sail. The babystay is made of dyneema, and is removable at the tack. It attached to the tensioning purchase via a dogbone. The rig tension is applied via an underdeck 6:1 block that is run back to a cabintop winch. You can really load it up. Normally you can stow all of this, but if you are expecting big breeze you can leave it all in place and ready to go.



I agree with Rick, major changes to rig geometry is a job for the pros and no place to play. If those homebrew jobs ever fail you can count on your insurance not paying.
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
This info below is not applicable to the fractional rigs found on most Macgregors. My info about these fractional boats comes from actual experience, not from theoretical sources. Most Mac racers agree that the forestay should be tensioned to about 300lbs of tension for best windward performance. By their design, the swept back upper spreader shrouds will have less tension on them, as together they oppose the forestay's tension. Their tension will actually be less than 1/2 of the forestay tension each, due to the leverage of the swept spreaders. This info is from actual testing, not theoretical hope.

The backstay on a fractional rig is not really necessary to sail the boat. Some masthead sailors don't realize this fact. About the only use of the backstay is to vary tension to adjust the luff of the main, the rig does not need the backstay to stand up. I never attach my backstay until my mast is pinned and tensioned at the stem fitting. Even then I only just pull the slack out of the backstay with a simple block and tackle adjuster.

If one actually uses a loos gauge to set up their rigs tension to have 300 lbs of tension on the forestay, the rig will be difficult to attach at the stem fitting, even if the turnbuckle there is loosened all the way. Installing a Johnson lever makes this job much easier.

Keep in mind that the basic rig of our fractional boats is the mast and the three upper stays. Three wires! The lower stays only straighten the possible forward bend in the mast due to the swept spreaders and mast compression. I have already spoken to the aft stay.

I am always amused by those sailors who warn of insurance adjusters who will refuse to pay off if any mods are done to a sailboat. I have heard that warning about everything from LED navigation lights to aftermarket rudders.


I have an extra Catalina 22 foresail that has a wire in the luff, perfect for free flying. I will get a picture up of 3 yes THREE headsails on a Mac fractional rig. YMMV


Doesnt matter if fractional or mast head as two forestays will require a backstay to be loaded to approx. 30% (or the proportional difference of their attachment points along the mast) to obtain an approximate 15% wire tension in each forestay. Swept back spreaders which slightly share the forestay load with the backstay dont make all that much difference ... the B&R backstayless rig is the exception.

The key here is that a forestay should be operating at about 15% of wire tension to support the designed shape of 'most' jibs/genoas for sailing in 'normal' wind conditions. If you have TWO forward stays, each will share 1/2 of the 'load' of the support/reaction system.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
.

I am always amused by those sailors who warn of insurance adjusters who will refuse to pay off if any mods are done to a sailboat.
LOL. If you think this is not true about rig mods you are kidding yourself. ALL of my boat policies have strict controls on the rigging, what can and cannot be done, and how often is must be inspected for the policy to be in force. You should read your policy.

PS - Your description of not needing a backstay on a frac rig is a oversimplification and wrong. First only boats with a spreader angle of over 28 degrees (+/- depending on spreaders and shrouds) can sail without a backstay all the time, and must be designed for that. On a fractional boats with backstays, the backstay is used to flatten the middle 1/3 of the mainsail to adjust for wind conditions. The bottom 1/3 is flattened with the outhaul. It also helps protect the mast from inverting under spinnaker or while reaching. And depending on the fractional percentage (9/10th, 7/8ths, 3/4s) it will also effect forestay tension and sag.
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
OK let me be perfectly correct. The fractional rig on these boats on this forum do not need the backstay to stand up. Since the boats did not come stock with a backstay adjuster, the backstay only does what the basic rig length allows it to....

Ditto for the spreader angle. The spreader sweep is pretty much the same on these boats on this forum.

If there is anyone here who has to provide rigging information to an insurance adjuster for a trailer sailor- I'd recommend another adjuster.

In other words, comparing this forums typical rig, insurance regs, spreader angle, backstay adjustment etc etc with those of the particular sailboats on which you sail is just false. The info about mainsail adjustments is interesting, but hardly necessary. Crying that the sky is falling every time someone changes their sailboat is very much over the top.
 

Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
....PS - Your description of not needing a backstay on a frac rig is a oversimplification and wrong. ...
I think what you are missing is we are talking about our boats, MacGregors, and not all boats. Our S is the same as his D in that you don't tension the forestay with the backstay.

I can't talk to the later X or the earlier MacGregor/Ventures but I believe that Roger designed them about the same.

As to the insurance our S is on our home owners and liability only as is our Endeavour insurance. Everyone should consider what they feel is appropriate for them and the insurance they have. My Hot Rod is all home brew and I drive it with full coverage insurance (over 150,000 miles). I haul homemade trailers down the road. I'm building a race car that I hope will be capable of 300+. We all have different comfort levels with things of this nature and we just need to take that into consideration,

Sum

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]============================[/FONT]

Our Endeavour 37

Our MacGregor 26-S Pages

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
 
Status
Not open for further replies.