Any thoughts on a 1985 375 and price/value ? Offered by internationalyacht.com at $62,900 lying in Dania FL. This would be a first boat and is intended for 2-3 months cruising per year. Brian, I know your thoughs on the volvo contained within, but any other thoughts are appreciated ? What would be a good price for this boat ? Would you recommend a different Beneteau for my experience/purposes in the $50K range ?
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Brian Pickton
First boat thoughts
Nov.25, 2000 Dear Allen, I’m pleased that your asking specific questions and supplying some background because that helps me frame a specific response. I expect the 2 to 3 months of cruising you are considering will be in beautiful areas like the Florida Keys and Bahamas. For the Bahamas, which are pretty dry, you are going to want a water maker if you plan to stay out for any length of time, but for short trips of a week or two the F375 carries adequate tankage. I don’t know what your level of sailing skill is but I note that you are looking at a first boat. Rightly or wrongly let’s assume that you have little sailing experience, since that creates the worst case scenario from your point of view. I would suggest that you sign up for a sailing course at a reputable school no matter what boat you decide on because it will get you up that learning curve a whole lot faster than trying it on your own. I know I learned more about practical hands on sailing in the first introductory sailing course I took than I had in 3 years of reading and trial and error (mostly error) on my own. Also lessons will give you the confidence to take your own boat out more often. Having done that, I would then suggest that you then want to sail your boat a lot in order to learn it and it’s systems. There is no replacement for cubic time on the water. Let’s deal with first boats. Generally speaking, no matter how much research you do and how many fenders you kick, the first boat will be the wrong boat for you. That’s one of the main reasons boats get sold - the never ending search for the perfect boat for me. Don’t let this idea stop you from buying a boat, just make sure that the boat you buy is not a one - off wonder that will have no resale market. That way you can rectify your mistakes without necessarily taking a beating on the resale Any large manufacturer is a good choice as a general rule, and Beneteau is better than most, since they are the largest. The average shore based sailor only uses his boat 27 days a year. The number one mistake people often make who are going cruising, but just a little, is buying too much boat with the attendant higher costs of operation and maintenance. They then put more gear on the boat then they need, much of which they may never learn to operate profficently, but hey, it’s their money, right? With that said, let’s move on. First, let’s deal with the F375. You could certainly do far worse for a first sailboat. The size is large enough for comfortable short term cruising as you suggest you are going to do, and the real salty types might consider it as a live aboard, but you can do better in that department. Our boat is in the same line, being an F456 which we have lived aboard and cruised for the last four years. First and foremost we picked this model because of its’ sailing ability, which is terrific, as can be said of all of the F series Beneteau boats. The layout, tankage and storage was adequate for our purposes, which included teaching sailing in a live aboard environment at that time. However the cockpit leans to a racing configuration and that means the travellor is in the cockpit and the seat backs are low and thus not as comfortable as the Oceanis series. This is a major consideration because the cockpit is your living space outdoors and you are going to spend a lot of time there, so it is important that the cockpit is easy to get around and that the seating be comfortable. The one thing you can be sure of is that the F375 you are looking at is an excellent sailer. The sail plan at 686 square feet is easily handled single handed and the deck layout has more than enough winches to keep the racing afficonado happy. However, I didn’t read anything about your going racing in your boat. You should know that after taking lessons, sailboat racing is an excellent way to hone your sailing skills, and once you get over being intimidated, can be a lot of fun to. A club racing schedule with a Wednesday night round the beer cans schedule is a great way to make sure you use your boat and maintain it, and a great way to meet other like minded individuals. If your plans seriously involve going racing with summer cruising thrown in, then I would say definitely go with this boat. You will be real happy with her as a club racer once you learn how to sail her, and she will take you cruising, albeit a little less comfortably than a full bore cruiser. You will also be able to make reasonably fast passages compared to other boats of the same size. Second, if racing is unlikely to be part of your sailing experience, then I think you want to do a lateral shift out of the First line and into the Oceanis series. My first choice here for what you have planned would be the Oceanis 361 model which is my favorite medium sized cruiser, but I haven’t seen any in your price range. Let’s get back to that concept of buying too much boat. If you are not going to live aboard full time you don’t necessarily need a full size cruiser, so start looking at the smaller end of the Oceanis line and work up until you see something that meets your needs as you understand them. Here I would suggest that you might want to consider an Oceanis 350. Be careful to distinguish this model from it’s bigger sister, the Oceanis 351, they are quite different in size. The 350 is just under 35 feet long, at 34’9”. Beam is 11’ 3”, and draft is 5’2” or 4’2” with the winged keel. Sail area is a modest 488 square feet, considerably less than the F375’s 686 square feet. This line was introduced in 1985 and offered a good layout and storage for its intended use as a medium sized cruiser. Personally I feel she is under canvassed for her displacement, but I will admit to a bias there as well. You can always add a cruising chute to help her along in light air. Prices start around $ 35,000 and go up. Her bigger sister, the Oceanis 351, was introduced in 1994 and is an honest 35 feet long, beam is 12’6”, which really opens up the interior, displacement is 12,000 pounds and sail area is slightly larger at 526 square feet. Tankage is good, as in most of the Oceanis line. Accommodation plan is adequate although I’m not a fan of rounded settees, to the extent that I tore ours out and replaced them with straight benches so we could have sea berths that worked. This may not be a consideration for you, considering the use you plan to make of the boat. This may be your best choice for a starter boat next to the 361 mentioned earlier. Prices range from around $ 50,000 to $ 65,000. I think I would like you to give this boat serious consideration before you commit to anything else. If the 351 represents the top of the bell curve in this little commentary, than the Oceanis 390 is just slightly on the down side. Still in your price range but perhaps more boat than you need, because in my opinion this is the bottom of the full size cruiser range. Length overall is 38’4”, beam 12’10” shallow draft is 4’’6” displacement 14,300. Sail area is 660 square feet, still a little less than the F375. Note that the beam of the f375, at 12’6” is less than the Oceanis’s 12’10”. Beam more than any other dimension effects volume and hence the amount of storage and living space you get. This is a cruiser with very good storage and comfortable accommodation, but it is still easily handled by a short handed crew. This is my second favorite boat in the full size cruiser range, second only to the Oceanis 411.) However this may be more boat than you need, as mentioned earlier. Prices run from $55,000 to $70,000 and up. ( I really like the Oceanis 500 and 510, but once again, go back to the more boat than you need commentary.) As I’ve been writing this and thinking about your situation the more I’m inclined to steer you away from the F series into the Oceanis series. Personal comfort must loom large in your plans and the Oceanis series get the nod for storage capacity and comfort, which enhances livability and hence cruising. If your also going to use your boat as your “cabin on the water” for weekend retreats livability again becomes emphasized. As usual I’ve gone on for too long, but I hope this helps give you some guidance and food for thought. If any thing else occurs to you that you would like to ask, I would be pleased to hear from you. And do drop us a line to let us know what you ultimately purchase. Good luck on the hunt. Brian Pickton @ BeneteauOwners.net Aboard the Legend, Rodney Bay, St. Lucia P.S. Now about that Volvo....
Nov.25, 2000 Dear Allen, I’m pleased that your asking specific questions and supplying some background because that helps me frame a specific response. I expect the 2 to 3 months of cruising you are considering will be in beautiful areas like the Florida Keys and Bahamas. For the Bahamas, which are pretty dry, you are going to want a water maker if you plan to stay out for any length of time, but for short trips of a week or two the F375 carries adequate tankage. I don’t know what your level of sailing skill is but I note that you are looking at a first boat. Rightly or wrongly let’s assume that you have little sailing experience, since that creates the worst case scenario from your point of view. I would suggest that you sign up for a sailing course at a reputable school no matter what boat you decide on because it will get you up that learning curve a whole lot faster than trying it on your own. I know I learned more about practical hands on sailing in the first introductory sailing course I took than I had in 3 years of reading and trial and error (mostly error) on my own. Also lessons will give you the confidence to take your own boat out more often. Having done that, I would then suggest that you then want to sail your boat a lot in order to learn it and it’s systems. There is no replacement for cubic time on the water. Let’s deal with first boats. Generally speaking, no matter how much research you do and how many fenders you kick, the first boat will be the wrong boat for you. That’s one of the main reasons boats get sold - the never ending search for the perfect boat for me. Don’t let this idea stop you from buying a boat, just make sure that the boat you buy is not a one - off wonder that will have no resale market. That way you can rectify your mistakes without necessarily taking a beating on the resale Any large manufacturer is a good choice as a general rule, and Beneteau is better than most, since they are the largest. The average shore based sailor only uses his boat 27 days a year. The number one mistake people often make who are going cruising, but just a little, is buying too much boat with the attendant higher costs of operation and maintenance. They then put more gear on the boat then they need, much of which they may never learn to operate profficently, but hey, it’s their money, right? With that said, let’s move on. First, let’s deal with the F375. You could certainly do far worse for a first sailboat. The size is large enough for comfortable short term cruising as you suggest you are going to do, and the real salty types might consider it as a live aboard, but you can do better in that department. Our boat is in the same line, being an F456 which we have lived aboard and cruised for the last four years. First and foremost we picked this model because of its’ sailing ability, which is terrific, as can be said of all of the F series Beneteau boats. The layout, tankage and storage was adequate for our purposes, which included teaching sailing in a live aboard environment at that time. However the cockpit leans to a racing configuration and that means the travellor is in the cockpit and the seat backs are low and thus not as comfortable as the Oceanis series. This is a major consideration because the cockpit is your living space outdoors and you are going to spend a lot of time there, so it is important that the cockpit is easy to get around and that the seating be comfortable. The one thing you can be sure of is that the F375 you are looking at is an excellent sailer. The sail plan at 686 square feet is easily handled single handed and the deck layout has more than enough winches to keep the racing afficonado happy. However, I didn’t read anything about your going racing in your boat. You should know that after taking lessons, sailboat racing is an excellent way to hone your sailing skills, and once you get over being intimidated, can be a lot of fun to. A club racing schedule with a Wednesday night round the beer cans schedule is a great way to make sure you use your boat and maintain it, and a great way to meet other like minded individuals. If your plans seriously involve going racing with summer cruising thrown in, then I would say definitely go with this boat. You will be real happy with her as a club racer once you learn how to sail her, and she will take you cruising, albeit a little less comfortably than a full bore cruiser. You will also be able to make reasonably fast passages compared to other boats of the same size. Second, if racing is unlikely to be part of your sailing experience, then I think you want to do a lateral shift out of the First line and into the Oceanis series. My first choice here for what you have planned would be the Oceanis 361 model which is my favorite medium sized cruiser, but I haven’t seen any in your price range. Let’s get back to that concept of buying too much boat. If you are not going to live aboard full time you don’t necessarily need a full size cruiser, so start looking at the smaller end of the Oceanis line and work up until you see something that meets your needs as you understand them. Here I would suggest that you might want to consider an Oceanis 350. Be careful to distinguish this model from it’s bigger sister, the Oceanis 351, they are quite different in size. The 350 is just under 35 feet long, at 34’9”. Beam is 11’ 3”, and draft is 5’2” or 4’2” with the winged keel. Sail area is a modest 488 square feet, considerably less than the F375’s 686 square feet. This line was introduced in 1985 and offered a good layout and storage for its intended use as a medium sized cruiser. Personally I feel she is under canvassed for her displacement, but I will admit to a bias there as well. You can always add a cruising chute to help her along in light air. Prices start around $ 35,000 and go up. Her bigger sister, the Oceanis 351, was introduced in 1994 and is an honest 35 feet long, beam is 12’6”, which really opens up the interior, displacement is 12,000 pounds and sail area is slightly larger at 526 square feet. Tankage is good, as in most of the Oceanis line. Accommodation plan is adequate although I’m not a fan of rounded settees, to the extent that I tore ours out and replaced them with straight benches so we could have sea berths that worked. This may not be a consideration for you, considering the use you plan to make of the boat. This may be your best choice for a starter boat next to the 361 mentioned earlier. Prices range from around $ 50,000 to $ 65,000. I think I would like you to give this boat serious consideration before you commit to anything else. If the 351 represents the top of the bell curve in this little commentary, than the Oceanis 390 is just slightly on the down side. Still in your price range but perhaps more boat than you need, because in my opinion this is the bottom of the full size cruiser range. Length overall is 38’4”, beam 12’10” shallow draft is 4’’6” displacement 14,300. Sail area is 660 square feet, still a little less than the F375. Note that the beam of the f375, at 12’6” is less than the Oceanis’s 12’10”. Beam more than any other dimension effects volume and hence the amount of storage and living space you get. This is a cruiser with very good storage and comfortable accommodation, but it is still easily handled by a short handed crew. This is my second favorite boat in the full size cruiser range, second only to the Oceanis 411.) However this may be more boat than you need, as mentioned earlier. Prices run from $55,000 to $70,000 and up. ( I really like the Oceanis 500 and 510, but once again, go back to the more boat than you need commentary.) As I’ve been writing this and thinking about your situation the more I’m inclined to steer you away from the F series into the Oceanis series. Personal comfort must loom large in your plans and the Oceanis series get the nod for storage capacity and comfort, which enhances livability and hence cruising. If your also going to use your boat as your “cabin on the water” for weekend retreats livability again becomes emphasized. As usual I’ve gone on for too long, but I hope this helps give you some guidance and food for thought. If any thing else occurs to you that you would like to ask, I would be pleased to hear from you. And do drop us a line to let us know what you ultimately purchase. Good luck on the hunt. Brian Pickton @ BeneteauOwners.net Aboard the Legend, Rodney Bay, St. Lucia P.S. Now about that Volvo....
R
Rich Wilcox
damn fine boat,
I own a 1987 First 375.I've raced her and cruised her.I 'll tell you all her strenghths and problems.All in all I think it is a great boat.I've sailed for 30 years and for coastal work she is a FUN ,RESPONSIVE AND COMFORTABLE BOAT. You can reach me at KeysWolf @aol.com. Wanna go for a sail???
I own a 1987 First 375.I've raced her and cruised her.I 'll tell you all her strenghths and problems.All in all I think it is a great boat.I've sailed for 30 years and for coastal work she is a FUN ,RESPONSIVE AND COMFORTABLE BOAT. You can reach me at KeysWolf @aol.com. Wanna go for a sail???
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