I currently run a 1979 Evinrude (2-stroke) engine on my Mac25 (1979). I have an opportunity to purchase a 2000 Honda (4-stroke) to replace it. Both have electric start and alternators. The Evinrude seems to be reliable but somewhat noisy and smelly. Would you say that the newer Honda would be a "night & day" upgrade" in terms of noise level or simply a moderate upgrade. Any other thoughts on this choice. I am trying to determine what value I should place on this upgrade. Thanks for any guidance.
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You didn't mention the displacements, number of cylinders etc. Multi-cylinders are smoother. I'm betting the newer 4-stroke is much quieter albeit heavier than the 2-stroke. You won't be polluting the water with the 4 stroke like the 2-stroke. No gas/oil mixes to fuss with either. I still like my 9.9 Merc 2-stroke
You didn't mention the displacements, number of cylinders etc. Multi-cylinders are smoother. I'm betting the newer 4-stroke is much quieter albeit heavier than the 2-stroke. You won't be polluting the water with the 4 stroke like the 2-stroke. No gas/oil mixes to fuss with either. I still like my 9.9 Merc 2-stroke
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I forgot to mention that the Honda is actually 15 hp. I am told that this is the same size and weight as the 9.9 hp. Will this have any impact in terms of noise level or fuel consumption assuming that I don't run it a full throttle? I am not sure of the displacement or # of cylinders. I assume that it is 2 cylinders like my Evinrude.
I forgot to mention that the Honda is actually 15 hp. I am told that this is the same size and weight as the 9.9 hp. Will this have any impact in terms of noise level or fuel consumption assuming that I don't run it a full throttle? I am not sure of the displacement or # of cylinders. I assume that it is 2 cylinders like my Evinrude.
Honda...
...like other manufacturers, probably uses the same block for the two engines and just tunes them differently... bigger carb, etc. Assuming that when you say "the 15 is the same size and weight as the 9.9 hp" you are talking about the 9.9 being a Honda and not your evinrude. It's very common in the States that smaller lakes have a 10 HP restriction so the 15 HPs were tuned down to 9.9 HP to pass. Compared to the fuel consumption you'll be saving over the two stroke, you won't notice the difference between the 9.9 and 15 and you'll always have that reserve power. Just be sure your motor mount can handle the weight and, if possible, add some reinforcement to the transom. Definitely a night and day upgrade all around!
...like other manufacturers, probably uses the same block for the two engines and just tunes them differently... bigger carb, etc. Assuming that when you say "the 15 is the same size and weight as the 9.9 hp" you are talking about the 9.9 being a Honda and not your evinrude. It's very common in the States that smaller lakes have a 10 HP restriction so the 15 HPs were tuned down to 9.9 HP to pass. Compared to the fuel consumption you'll be saving over the two stroke, you won't notice the difference between the 9.9 and 15 and you'll always have that reserve power. Just be sure your motor mount can handle the weight and, if possible, add some reinforcement to the transom. Definitely a night and day upgrade all around!
2 Vs 4
Is the Honda free? I wouldn't spend any money on that upgrade. It is really not as much an up grade as it seems. The 4 cycle will be quieter. It will also need a new motor mount, and the prop will have to be replaced to make it perform right. I sold my Mac with a 9.9 Hp Honda. Too heavy, cost a bundle to get the proper motor mount on the boat. Didn't go any faster and had less thrust than a 4 Hp I have. The prop on these Hondas have too much pitch. You almost make hull speed at idel. This means that coming into a marina with out remote throttle/shift, you are stuck leaning over the stern kicking it in and out of gear at idel, while trying to dock. AND when you want to stop, the prop just cavitates. It also ruined the trim of the boat for sailing. I'd never have a small sail boat with such a heavy motor again. Top that off with the fact that the Honda 9.9 Hp is the lightest 10 Hp motor 4 cycle out there. For a 4 cycle I wouldn't go over 6 Hp. Even then you may find yourself replacing the prop and putting on a sturdier motor mount.
Is the Honda free? I wouldn't spend any money on that upgrade. It is really not as much an up grade as it seems. The 4 cycle will be quieter. It will also need a new motor mount, and the prop will have to be replaced to make it perform right. I sold my Mac with a 9.9 Hp Honda. Too heavy, cost a bundle to get the proper motor mount on the boat. Didn't go any faster and had less thrust than a 4 Hp I have. The prop on these Hondas have too much pitch. You almost make hull speed at idel. This means that coming into a marina with out remote throttle/shift, you are stuck leaning over the stern kicking it in and out of gear at idel, while trying to dock. AND when you want to stop, the prop just cavitates. It also ruined the trim of the boat for sailing. I'd never have a small sail boat with such a heavy motor again. Top that off with the fact that the Honda 9.9 Hp is the lightest 10 Hp motor 4 cycle out there. For a 4 cycle I wouldn't go over 6 Hp. Even then you may find yourself replacing the prop and putting on a sturdier motor mount.
It's a downgrade in most respects...
Have to remember it's a sailboat and the motor is called a "kicker" for a reason. It's dead weight most of the time and more weight = poor sailing trim. On a 26S or D the Honda means you can't turn the engine to steer at low speed. Many say these models steer fine with just the tiller, but I welcome them to try mine at speed under 2 kts in a tight marina... I almost ruptured myself helping a fellow T/SA sailor pull a Honda 9.9 from his van and mount it on the boat. And with a Mac 25, you can't realistically tow with the motor in place. By comparison, my 8.8 Suzuki (2 stroke oil injected) is a little under 70 lbs - about 2/3 the weight of the Honda. Easy to heft, stays on the transom and moves to assist maneuvering. Teliki also rests on her waterline i.e. optimum for sailing. Noise level? We don't motor that long for it to be an issue. The only plus as I see it is fuel consumption. When we head to Bimini one of these days, I'd prefer a 4 stroke. Some mention that overpowering the boat (as in 15hp or more) gives you decent reverse performance - but you compromize almost every other aspect of sailing. For now, I enjoy a light weight, easy to manouver motor - that only runs about 15 minutes per trip. And I've resigned myself to a seasonal fuel bill of $50 instead of $20... Just my opinion, Chris
Have to remember it's a sailboat and the motor is called a "kicker" for a reason. It's dead weight most of the time and more weight = poor sailing trim. On a 26S or D the Honda means you can't turn the engine to steer at low speed. Many say these models steer fine with just the tiller, but I welcome them to try mine at speed under 2 kts in a tight marina... I almost ruptured myself helping a fellow T/SA sailor pull a Honda 9.9 from his van and mount it on the boat. And with a Mac 25, you can't realistically tow with the motor in place. By comparison, my 8.8 Suzuki (2 stroke oil injected) is a little under 70 lbs - about 2/3 the weight of the Honda. Easy to heft, stays on the transom and moves to assist maneuvering. Teliki also rests on her waterline i.e. optimum for sailing. Noise level? We don't motor that long for it to be an issue. The only plus as I see it is fuel consumption. When we head to Bimini one of these days, I'd prefer a 4 stroke. Some mention that overpowering the boat (as in 15hp or more) gives you decent reverse performance - but you compromize almost every other aspect of sailing. For now, I enjoy a light weight, easy to manouver motor - that only runs about 15 minutes per trip. And I've resigned myself to a seasonal fuel bill of $50 instead of $20... Just my opinion, Chris
I'd vote for Honda it takes a dunking and keeps
on clunking. It even floated for a few seconds. Still runs like a clock after fishing it from the bottom of the dock. The extra HP makes a big difference in speed. The weight is not as bad as they claim. Manual says 77.18 lbs. It only feels like 500 lbs. after a day of sailing and tearing down the rest of the rig. The difference between them: 6 hp 2 cycle on a Mac22 = 3.2 Mph. and Honda 10hp on Mac25 = 6.8 Mph Frank
on clunking. It even floated for a few seconds. Still runs like a clock after fishing it from the bottom of the dock. The extra HP makes a big difference in speed. The weight is not as bad as they claim. Manual says 77.18 lbs. It only feels like 500 lbs. after a day of sailing and tearing down the rest of the rig. The difference between them: 6 hp 2 cycle on a Mac22 = 3.2 Mph. and Honda 10hp on Mac25 = 6.8 Mph Frank
I differ on the weight?
Honda 9.9 (BFP9.9D4XHA), rope start, long shaft (25 inch) dry weight is 107 lbs according to the manufacture spec. The one I helped move weighed over 100 lbs and was a two person job to haul out of the van and onto the boat (quite a lift on an M25 when on the trailer). A 9.9 and 15 should both push a M25 to hull speed at way less than full throttle. Assuming the current OB is adequate(8+ horsepower), it seems like a poor place to invest several thousand dollars? If the current OB was dead or on it's last legs, that would be a different story (then I'd look at a Tohatsu 9.8 at 81 lbs). Chris
Honda 9.9 (BFP9.9D4XHA), rope start, long shaft (25 inch) dry weight is 107 lbs according to the manufacture spec. The one I helped move weighed over 100 lbs and was a two person job to haul out of the van and onto the boat (quite a lift on an M25 when on the trailer). A 9.9 and 15 should both push a M25 to hull speed at way less than full throttle. Assuming the current OB is adequate(8+ horsepower), it seems like a poor place to invest several thousand dollars? If the current OB was dead or on it's last legs, that would be a different story (then I'd look at a Tohatsu 9.8 at 81 lbs). Chris
Wonder why they added 30 lbs to it since 1984?
Sure makes a case to look for an older Honda and avoid the new ones... Chris
Sure makes a case to look for an older Honda and avoid the new ones... Chris
Sound Levels
The real driver for me to upgrade would be a dramatic reduction in sound level. Four stroke engines are reportedly considerably quieter and Honda is reported to be one of the quietest. I am wondering if 2-strokes have also gotten quieter over the years (i.e. since 1979). I cannot find any comparative sound pressure level data so I don't have a real sense of how much quieter a newer 4-stroke would be over an older 2-stroke. (BTW I currently have a 9.9 hp 2-stroke)
The real driver for me to upgrade would be a dramatic reduction in sound level. Four stroke engines are reportedly considerably quieter and Honda is reported to be one of the quietest. I am wondering if 2-strokes have also gotten quieter over the years (i.e. since 1979). I cannot find any comparative sound pressure level data so I don't have a real sense of how much quieter a newer 4-stroke would be over an older 2-stroke. (BTW I currently have a 9.9 hp 2-stroke)
2 stroke vs 4 stroke
Isn't it true 5hat during transportation a 2-stoke can be in any position while a 4-stroke MUST remain upright so the oil stays in the crankcase?
Isn't it true 5hat during transportation a 2-stoke can be in any position while a 4-stroke MUST remain upright so the oil stays in the crankcase?
I'm partial to two strokes
An 6-8 HP 2 stroke twin would do you well. I don't think you can get a 4 stroke in a twin until you get up to 8HP / 80+ pounds. Twins run much smoother and quieter with less vibration. Dangling any extra weight of the transom is no good for trailering or sailing. I can maneuver my 8 HP 2-stroke (for a 26 ft 3200 lb boat) handily. Folks with 8 HP 4 strokes are prepping for hernia operations. Yes a 4 stroke may sound quieter and are slightly more environmentally friendly, but to me, it ain't worth it if you have to jump up to 8HP and 85 lbs to get a twin where a 6 HP, 50 pound 2 stroke twin would do.
An 6-8 HP 2 stroke twin would do you well. I don't think you can get a 4 stroke in a twin until you get up to 8HP / 80+ pounds. Twins run much smoother and quieter with less vibration. Dangling any extra weight of the transom is no good for trailering or sailing. I can maneuver my 8 HP 2-stroke (for a 26 ft 3200 lb boat) handily. Folks with 8 HP 4 strokes are prepping for hernia operations. Yes a 4 stroke may sound quieter and are slightly more environmentally friendly, but to me, it ain't worth it if you have to jump up to 8HP and 85 lbs to get a twin where a 6 HP, 50 pound 2 stroke twin would do.
Hey Fred - is the 2 stroke for sale?
Our Suzuki decided to wear out a connecting rod bearing. If I can't repair it for less than half a new motor (which is what it's looking like), I'll be looking for a used 2 stroke replacement. Wouldn't visiting Montreal again either... Chris
Our Suzuki decided to wear out a connecting rod bearing. If I can't repair it for less than half a new motor (which is what it's looking like), I'll be looking for a used 2 stroke replacement. Wouldn't visiting Montreal again either... Chris
Not for Sale
Chris... Considering all the wisdom expressed on this forum I have decided to keep my trusty Evinrude 2-Stroke for the time being. If I change my mind I'll let you know.
Chris... Considering all the wisdom expressed on this forum I have decided to keep my trusty Evinrude 2-Stroke for the time being. If I change my mind I'll let you know.
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