1978 Lancer 28' - Good Deal?

[JFKSail]

Hi All,

I'm new around here, so please afford me whatever patience you can.

I have come across a deal on a boat for a song... basically the boat is free, all I have to do is pay the winter storage on it. The complications are that it is on the other side of the country from me, and I don't know much at all about the condition of the boat. Here are the pictures I have:

http://imgur.com/cBJJR.jpg
http://imgur.com/OTGRN.jpg
http://imgur.com/krPLZ.jpg
http://imgur.com/g4kMK.jpg

What should I look out for when I go look at it? What I know about the boat is:

- Need to replace the drop boards which separate the cockpit from the cabin as they are not in great shape.
- '94 Yamaha 9.9HP with Yamaha 703 remote throttle in cockpit - HOWEVER, it may not be able to be tested as the owner lost the starter key, which needs to be ordered from Yamaha with the serial number (so consider it 50/50 being bad or good)
- Recently completed a sanding down of the hull's anti-foul bottom paint and
repainted the bottom with 3 coats of Interlux Micron CSC anti-foul
- The headliner in the top right corner of the main cabin appears to be separating somewhat.
- Need new pulleys/blocks for the mainsheet and the boom vang.
- The Jib looked worn in a couple of places, but the Main was just fine.

Given all these things, when I fly out there, what should I be looking for? The situation is this: I work from home, so if I buy this thing, I'm moving to the boat, and spending the winter (will have dry dock until May) fixing it up. I can spend a good amount of money on it in that time. What kinds of things should I be looking for as signs that it will be a money pit? I've read about sounding the deck for delamination, etc., is there anything else about that you can think of?

My goals for this boat will be as a starter, to learn boat repair/restoration techniques and improve my sailing skill on the ocean next summer. Later I'll probably trade up.

Thanks a lot everyone!

Jason

 

[Fairwind]

Hey Jason! She looks good! My wife and I own the identical boat and keep her (Semper Libra) near San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico and use her for coastal gunkholing and the occasional short cruise over to the Baja. These boats do not have a reputation for superb quality, but they are seaworthy in sheltered waters. Open ocean cruising, No.....Ours is powered by a 9.9 Mercury 4-stroke (Tohatsu) and that works very well, MUCH better than an inboard diesel.

The glaring weaknesses are the cheezy windows (portlights) and the plastic interior paneling which is a nightmare to remove and replace..The sink(s)-water tank-plumbing are, I'll be kind, inadaquite..But! But! She is a GREAT sailor and suprisingly fast and not tender at all. We put an Alado roller furling on ours, the best thing we ever did..She has a sweet motion even in sloppy conditions. The V-birth is too short for a six footer. And the mainsheet pad-eye's location, right in the middle of the companionway, is VERY poor and a bridge over the companionway hatch needs to be fabricated and the mainsheet moved up there..

What else do you want to know?

 

[JFKSail]

Hey Jason! She looks good! My wife and I own the identical boat and keep her (Semper Libra) near San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico and use her for coastal gunkholing and the occasional short cruise over to the Baja. These boats do not have a reputation for superb quality, but they are seaworthy in sheltered waters. Open ocean cruising, No.....Ours is powered by a 9.9 Mercury 4-stroke (Tohatsu) and that works very well, MUCH better than an inboard diesel.

Hey thanks for the input! Are there any other places where you would say the quality is "not superb"? One thing I am not too sure about is the hull-deck joint, but I wasn't really able to scrutinize it that closely.

Otherwise, do you have comments about the strength of the hull/keel? I was impressed by the size of the keel, it seems the gradual attachment point should handle a lot of stress.

Have you had to do any re-coring / re-glassing of the deck? I think that might be something I'm going to be doing on this one, as I have found quite a few fractures on the deck, especially in the area of the anchor locker up front.

The glaring weaknesses are the cheezy windows (portlights) and the plastic interior paneling which is a nightmare to remove and replace..The sink(s)-water tank-plumbing are, I'll be kind, inadaquite..But! But!

Yes, I have every intention of re-doing all the plumbing. In fact I intend to remove the sink up by the head, as I don't really feel it's necessary to have that second sink in the first place (this is mainly going to be a solo-liveaboard type boat). The portlights are definitely up for inspection, as one of them is badly splintering or something interesting like that... and another has a failed seal which is letting water in. That in turn has it seems ruined some deck core, and put water inside the headliner (also coming out and being re-done).

She is a GREAT sailor and suprisingly fast and not tender at all. We put an Alado roller furling on ours, the best thing we ever did..She has a sweet motion even in sloppy conditions. The V-birth is too short for a six footer. And the mainsheet pad-eye's location, right in the middle of the companionway, is VERY poor and a bridge over the companionway hatch needs to be fabricated and the mainsheet moved up there..

Mine has a CDI roller furler on the headsail right now... I'm glad to hear about the sailing characteristics! This is my first boat so I'm happy that it sounds like it will be fun to sail. The V-Berth is definitely a candidate for becoming a sail locker, as I'm 6'0'' anyway, and like I said, this is mainly going to be a solo boat. I'll definitely take into consideration the bridge idea. Since I'm going to be doing extensive deck-work already, I want to move everything to where I want it now.

What else do you want to know?

Anything you want to tell me, my friend! I'm glad to hear someone else has the same boat and is generally happy with it. Mine is going to look like a different beast by the time I am done with it!

 

[Fairwind]

The nice thing about a low-cost boat is you can do what you want with it without any "lost value" worries. The keel is part of the hull (that's where the 6'2" headroom comes from) and is one of the boats best features..The "bilge" is the last 18" rearward. the rest is full of ballast, lead shot, whatever they had laying around..Any water that gets in seems to find its way into the bilge (somehow, I'm not sure how). That nice aluminum toe-rail (sheet-blocks anyplace you want them!) is attached with a million screws which I'm pretty sure makes the hull-deck joint pretty secure. You can spend a fortune trying to restore de-laminated decks and rotting cores. On a low value boat, a better solution is to inject epoxy filler into the suspect areas to stiffen them up and restore the structure..Purists frown at this but it works pretty good..

Where we are, your life can depend on your ground tackle, so crawl up under the chain locker, in front of it, take down the paneling and inspect the security and mounting of the front deck cleats and chainplate for the forstay. Our cleats had NO backing plates or large, heavy washers..A disaster waiting to happen..A couple of our safety line stanchions were loose, the ones next to the companionway bulkhead. We discovered the mounting plates had been fiberglassed over!! Before the bolts could be replaced and tightened, the fiberglass sandwitch had to be cut away with a hammer and chisel. Moving the paneling out of the way in this area proved to be impossible, so I just cut an access hole..As you have discovered, the "lavatory" is useless (we use a Port-O-Potty) and that precious space could be better utilized. For one, a longer V-birth..I installed a 25 gallon fresh water tank under the V-birth to supplement the inadaquite factory 12 gallon tank under the companionway steps..In the space used for the stove, I installed a 3 burner stove/oven out of a P/U camper. Works fine..Behind the factory water tank is an 18 gallon fuel tank with its filler in the center of the cockpit sole..I'll post some pictures if I can figure out how..

I posted a few pictures under "Fairwind's profile" called Sempre Libra..

 

[JFKSail]

Hey Fairwind, thanks for the information you gave. I did end up getting the boat, and just got back from a Saturday work session on her.

The main problems I'm finding right now are that the caulking appears to be non-existent on the starboard front window, and the other two appear to be precariously caulked at best. I cut away all the fiberglass on the inside due to it being in terrible shape, and found that all the wood below was completely rotted, I mean you could touch it and it falls out moistly... So yeah.

Struggling now with thoughts on how to replace that core, or whether to replace it at all. The current thought I'm having is to re-seal the windows securely first. Then I'm going to have to remove all the core as it is not just wet but completely soaked and destroyed. All the core is gone from the vertical portions, but the part under where you step outside is still cored. I'm noticing that the core does not even go all the way to the edge...

My thought is to maybe forego a core at all, and use some tubing cut in half, which would be glassed over as a strength joint thing. Then between the windows I take some more tubing and go cross-wise. I'm reticent to put more core in as it seems difficult and fraught with problems, as I'm not guaranteed to do a perfect job where water won't get in again someday. I'm not even sure I understand the point of core at all, a ribbed strengthening system seems more logical to me.

Other than that, I need to figure out how to step the mast without killing myself or my roommates , determine how to check the through-hulls for water-fast-ness (whatever the word is here for checking to make sure she won't sink), and then paint the bottom.

Also the engine is missing its key for the Yamaha remote ignition, but I'm pretty sure I can get it replaced or essentially "hotwire" it.

It's sure going to be an adventure! I just came back and re-read your post, that's some good information, about the size of the water tank, etc. I too was trying to determine what to do about fuel... I need space for a lot of it because I intend to go from NJ to FL on the intracoastal this fall. Who knows how much wind (and more importantly, sailing expertise) I'll have, on the way.

Jason

 

[Brian D]

Jason, even though the boat is free, you might be getting into a financial nightmare. I am speaking to worst possible here. So I would highly recommend having a surveyor look at the boat. I know this is not a "major" purchase, but if it is going to be a lot of work and you are not up to it, what are you going to do with the boat? Sure as heck can't sink it in the ocean.

Just advising caution. Sometimes we get lucky and get a winner and sometimes we do not. There was a gal on here several years ago who was getting into an Irwin 32 that was a Katrina victim. The boat "looked" good and was dirt cheap, but they found out it was going to cost a small fortune to get it ship-shape again.

Caveat Emptor!

 

[Fairwind]

"Sure as heck can't sink it in the ocean."...

You sure as heck can! They sink like a stone..Two boats go out, one boat comes back...

JFKSail: Have you removed the headliner and side panel trim?

Balsa Core...I think the manufactures used this method to achieve rigidity and light weight. Few boats are worth trying to remove and replace it. How do you intend to remove it? I would talk to a pro about your options here..

Yes, install a simple marine-grade toggle switch to control the engine. Forget the key..

The owners manual has detailed instructions for raising the mast..Just take it slow and easy and have a couple of extra hands to keep the mast from "getting sideways"...Make sure everything at the masthead is the way you want it BEFORE you raise it!

 

[JFKSail]

I did remove the side trim, and all the cushioning while I'm cutting up fiberglass... The headliner is partially detached but should be salvageable. I'm seriously thinking of replacing the rotted core with a radically different design. If I can replicate a similar weight/rigidity profile, why not? Because I'm replacing from the inside, I'm just not up to re-doing the core, only to have it probably rot out again when some other leak springs up because of how much of this boat is in marginal shape. If all I need is enough rigidity to hold up to waves and people walking, I'm pretty sure I can do it with an alternative method.

Besides, if it doesn't work out... 2 boats out, 1 boat back right? ;-)

The mast raising definitely seems doable, and I have a few friends who are ready to help out.

Thanks for the help!

"Sure as heck can't sink it in the ocean."...

You sure as heck can! They sink like a stone..Two boats go out, one boat comes back...


JFKSail: Have you removed the headliner and side panel trim?

Balsa Core...I think the manufactures used this method to achieve rigidity and light weight. Few boats are worth trying to remove and replace it. How do you intend to remove it? I would talk to a pro about your options here..

Yes, install a simple marine-grade toggle switch to control the engine. Forget the key..

The owners manual has detailed instructions for raising the mast..Just take it slow and easy and have a couple of extra hands to keep the mast from "getting sideways"...Make sure everything at the masthead is the way you want it BEFORE you raise it!

 

[BobM]

Sorry to hear you got a boat with a lot of soggy core. This is not uncommon in the older L25 and L28's with the big fixed ports. There are alternatives to balsa you could use for core, but you need to keep in mind that it took 30 years for your boat to get to where it is and that core damage is preventable by isolating the core from deck penetrations.

Sorry, but my best advice is to do as little as possible to get her sailing and to enjoy your first boat. If she is in rough shape her main value may be in being a cheap first ride. Once you determine whether or not the sailing bug has bitten you can make the call to fix her or move on selling her for someone else to start on.

I bought a Lancer 25 for $1000, got her operational and sailed her for three years before buying my current boat. Per dollar, nobody got more fun out of their boat than me. However, I soon realized that I was better off selling her and moving on than investing in a major restoration. I sold her to another guy looking for a starter boat for $1350. He, unfortunately, was unsuccessful at sailing and sold her for about the same money to someone who has posted on this board who desires to restore her. If he does, great! If he doesn't, but loves sailing and decides to go in another direction that is also great as she is still serving a valuable purpose...teaching people on a budget the joys of sailing.

I still love to sail...it just costs me a lot more now...but I don't mind that anymore. If I added up the money I spent on the boat and divided it by the number of hours I sailed I probably wouldn't like the math...but as I tell my Wife...I could be doing much less healthy things with $500/month and at least the "other woman" weighs 10,000 lbs LOL.