Hi all, Well, I officially baptized my 170 on Saturday (I'm an avid Laser sailor too, so I, and that Laser, have personally been baptized too many times to count!)! I was sailing my 170 singlehanded in 14-16mph breezes for several hours, with the barometer on the rise-- gorgeous day. I reefed the mainsail because the wind was building toward a "fresh breeze”. I noticed some vertical development & virga about five miles to the east, but no apparent t-storms or squalls in the area (I'm not a meteorologist, so maybe the virga should have tipped me off to what might be to come). As I plowed along on a port tack, the 170 up on a glorious 10-15 degree heel, me easing the main now and then to keep her down, I noticed that the water just to my east suddenly looked like it was being just pelted by rain, and it was advancing toward me fast--- Hmmmm, I didn't feel any large drops preceding it. Then my mind suddenly blurted out, that's not driving rain, it's WIND!! *WHAM!* I was absolutely hammered by a squall line. I was running full jib and reefed main so I rounded the boat immediately up into the blast, luffed the main and jib all the way and tried to furl the jib. But it was being flogged so violently and the boat immediately began to bear off to the lee. Both sails were completely luffed and although I was glued to the windward rail, I immediately proceeded to capsize! The entire sequence took all of 4 seconds. With the sails luffing and thus unable to draw any of this nasty wind, the boat had no chance of staying pointed up into the wind and was just blindsided. I've never actually been exposed to wind of this strength (we've weathered hurricanes and tropical storms in our house, but from INSIDE the house) and was amazed to see my 170 go over as quickly as a Laser does during an accidental jibe. The 170, of course, is not Laser-like when it comes to rightability. The moment I hit the water (which was immediately, and the high boom made this entry easy--- no risk of hitting the boom while falling into the water), I SCRAMBLED around and actually swam under the corner of the transom to reach the centerboard--- to which I'd attached my anti-slam cord (thank God). By this time, the boat was already turning turtle. My boat does not have a Hobie 'football' on its masthead, nor is the mast "foamed" inside, so I'd be interested to hear perhaps Danny H's perspective on how well foaming works (capsize test completed yet??) and how easy the 170 is to right singlehanded while on its side ---football or foam having prevented it from turtling. I'm wondering too how easy the c-b is to reach from the water--- it's much higher than the c-b on a Laser/Sunfish, so I'd be curious to know how effective a single, 160 lb. guy dangling from the 170's c-b is in bringing her back over—considering she’s been prevented from turtling. In hindsight, I'm glad I DIDN'T have foam or a football because my instinct to pop the boat back up a-s-a-p would have taken over and I'd have righted her immediately, only to be knocked down again--- by definition, a squall is not just a gust, but a blast of wind lasting a minute or more, and this one lasted a couple of minutes. In this case, it was best to just stay low and not subject the rig to another beating. To my west, about a 1/2 mile, a small keelboat (24') had dropped its sails moments before the squall (maybe I should have observed this sailor's keen weather-eye and powered up my kicker motor and dropped sails as well?). This boat slowly motored toward me once the squall had passed, but it took about 20 minutes for them to actually arrive on the scene. After the capsize, I’d immediately climbed up onto the overturned hull (unless you're an Olympic gymnast, this is not an easy task) using the rudder and rudder gudgeons as a step-up, and doing so on the port side, so as to avoid hitting my now water-logged outboard. The keelboat’s crew cellphoned a friend of theirs on the lake who had one of these large, three-seater Sea Doo’s and we waited. Meantime, I jumped back into the water, remembering that I always remove the topping lift from the boom and secure it to the port side chainplates once the main is raised. Turned out this move was key—as the topping lift was a great method for righting the boat. By this time, the 170 had stopped drifting, as the masthead had become stuck on the bottom. The personal watercraft arrived, with a long ski-rope attached and two guys disembarked off the back, while the captain of the watercraft circled. I secured the topping lift’s bitter end to the end of the jetski’s line and the captain loitered as I climbed back up onto the turtled hull. I then had the comedic honor of hauling my two assistants aboard (picture a big guy trying to climb onto an idle inner-tube to be towed behind a powerboat)--- I’d guess that a portion of folks who sail the 170 couldn’t climb up onto its turtled hull if they had to. My saviors now aboard, we proceeded to the starboard side of the boat, toes tentatively planted on the rubrail and each guy held onto the centerboard. We could not budge the boat back over alone: I really think the topping lift and powerboat are the most headache-free way of righting the boat. The jetski proceeded out to port and pulled the topping lift taught. A little gas from the jetski and the boat began to come over. The three of us leaned out and the boat came through 150 degrees of capsize and I yelled for the jetski to slow his pull. Slowly and surely, the boat came all the way over. I was overjoyed to look aloft and see that the rig and my sails were completely unscathed and looked great. My Windex 10 windvane, however was utterly mangled. As mentioned, my Yamaha 2.5 four-stroke was completely underwater for about an hour, so I’m currently nursing it (hopefully) back to health. Any rehab recommendations besides drain the gas, oil and replace spark plug? I think I’d read that a 170 sailor had dunked his Honda 2hp--- any ideas on drying my motor out right? Also, again, has anyone had tested success with foaming their 170’s mast? While I didn’t like the helplessness of my boat being turtled, I also don’t like the Hobie football option for my 170. Any input on foaming’s effectiveness and (in case I succumb and go this route) just how well does the football work/how easy is it to right a 170 from the centerboard singlehanded while mast float keeps boat from turtling, would be helpful. All this said, I’m convinced that this squall was a one-in-a-thousand event and that this kind of dunking is just part of the fun/risk of being a dinghy sailor. Still might pay me to watch the weather a little closer. Now I see why articles in SAIL magazine are devoted to sailors of large keelboats who prepare well for impending squalls, and avoid them like the plague. Also, any advice on spotting squalls would be helpful. I’ve been sailing for 20 years and have NEVER encountered such a phenomenon on the water—and had no clue it was coming until it was 100 feet away. I think the moral of the story is, when in doubt in a dinghy, start auxiliary power and douse all sails—in order to save said aux. power from becoming waterlogged later. This could have prevented a capsize in the first place. Perhaps I should pay better attention in the future to what other sailors are doing to prevent damage to their boats (keelboat that came to my rescue)—like lowering their sails. That keelboat and I were the only sailboats on the water that day because it was really blowing, but I don’t think we were fool-hearty by any means. Full sails, Mike G. Alachua, FL
170 and its captain dunked by squall
- Thread starter gball
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Hobie Float for Me
Mike, What an adventure! Glad you came out ok. Have to ask...what's a 'virga'? You might recall I did my own capsize test last Oct here in NY. Wore wetsuits of course. My biggest problem was having the boat immediately blow away from me after righting. Didn't have any line in hand. Learned that one! Have to say I like my Hobie Baby Bob. $90.00 bought a lot of piece of mind & when the winds aren't kickin', I leave it off. Foam looks better of course but not an issue here. Enjoyed your story! Joe
Mike, What an adventure! Glad you came out ok. Have to ask...what's a 'virga'? You might recall I did my own capsize test last Oct here in NY. Wore wetsuits of course. My biggest problem was having the boat immediately blow away from me after righting. Didn't have any line in hand. Learned that one! Have to say I like my Hobie Baby Bob. $90.00 bought a lot of piece of mind & when the winds aren't kickin', I leave it off. Foam looks better of course but not an issue here. Enjoyed your story! Joe
Capsizing test
Joe, Your Hobie baby bob can be left off when it's not blowing?! That's another possible selling point!!!!!-- how is it affixed to the masthead- is it easily attached and detached at the ramp? Was your capsize test done WITH the hobie bob? I'd have to imagine so, unless you were VERY fast to jump on that c-b and prevent her from going all the way over! Virga is apparent rain in the distance (descending from the clouds in sheets) that doesn't actually make it to the ground (evaporates/disapates beforehand). Sometimes it's indicative of squally weather, I think... Mike
Joe, Your Hobie baby bob can be left off when it's not blowing?! That's another possible selling point!!!!!-- how is it affixed to the masthead- is it easily attached and detached at the ramp? Was your capsize test done WITH the hobie bob? I'd have to imagine so, unless you were VERY fast to jump on that c-b and prevent her from going all the way over! Virga is apparent rain in the distance (descending from the clouds in sheets) that doesn't actually make it to the ground (evaporates/disapates beforehand). Sometimes it's indicative of squally weather, I think... Mike
Foam test was done !
Hi Mike, Some time ago I posted an article about foaming your 170 mast, I also wrote the follow up foam test which Brian and I did at Castaic lake and yes, adding foam to your mast worked well. You might be able to find the earlier post some place here, if not you can send me an e-mail and I will send you the "foam procedure and the foam test results"....I'm really happy about the foam, easy to right the boat. My new Honda 2 hp Danny H.was able to get running that night, the next day I took the motor in to my Honda dealer for service explaining that it was submerged in salt water. The salt water did runin the clutch so that was replaced. They did a good job on it and it runs fine. Glenn glenn.basore@medtronic.com
Hi Mike, Some time ago I posted an article about foaming your 170 mast, I also wrote the follow up foam test which Brian and I did at Castaic lake and yes, adding foam to your mast worked well. You might be able to find the earlier post some place here, if not you can send me an e-mail and I will send you the "foam procedure and the foam test results"....I'm really happy about the foam, easy to right the boat. My new Honda 2 hp Danny H.was able to get running that night, the next day I took the motor in to my Honda dealer for service explaining that it was submerged in salt water. The salt water did runin the clutch so that was replaced. They did a good job on it and it runs fine. Glenn glenn.basore@medtronic.com
Baby Bob
Mike, Yes it is easily removed. First, to install need to drill slightly one peened end of each pin at masthead that hold halyard rollers in place. Xcess drilling is not needed. Use hammer and punch to push pins out. B Bob comes with bracket and hardware. Bracket holes match pulley pin holes. Attach bracket with stainless screws and locknuts provided. Simple. Noted screw diameter is a little smaller than holes in pulleys and concidering either larger dia screws or a sleeve for each. Pulleys function fine and not an urgent issue. Capsize in Oct was done with a large docking fender roped to mast...similar volume as Baby Bob. Capsize this year done with Baby Bob. As I said, works great and actually FUN in warm water! Not an anti-foamer, but for reasons already stated I preferred going with the Baby Bob. Choose one & pull up on that Mainsheet
Joe
Mike, Yes it is easily removed. First, to install need to drill slightly one peened end of each pin at masthead that hold halyard rollers in place. Xcess drilling is not needed. Use hammer and punch to push pins out. B Bob comes with bracket and hardware. Bracket holes match pulley pin holes. Attach bracket with stainless screws and locknuts provided. Simple. Noted screw diameter is a little smaller than holes in pulleys and concidering either larger dia screws or a sleeve for each. Pulleys function fine and not an urgent issue. Capsize in Oct was done with a large docking fender roped to mast...similar volume as Baby Bob. Capsize this year done with Baby Bob. As I said, works great and actually FUN in warm water! Not an anti-foamer, but for reasons already stated I preferred going with the Baby Bob. Choose one & pull up on that Mainsheet
Joe170 and its captain dunked - 146 owners want to k
I too am very interested in hearing experiences from others, including 146 owners. Having heard so many turtle stories (mostly from 170's), was wondering about foaming the mast. Like Mike, I plan on putting a windvane atop, so don't want a float up there. You raise lots of great questions - I look forward to benefiting from the many voices of experience. Amy 146 sailors out there capsize / turtle those often? They have the same beaqm, but are shorter, and of course less sail, so are they less prone to capsizing? And if they do, do they always turtle, as it seems to for the 170?
I too am very interested in hearing experiences from others, including 146 owners. Having heard so many turtle stories (mostly from 170's), was wondering about foaming the mast. Like Mike, I plan on putting a windvane atop, so don't want a float up there. You raise lots of great questions - I look forward to benefiting from the many voices of experience. Amy 146 sailors out there capsize / turtle those often? They have the same beaqm, but are shorter, and of course less sail, so are they less prone to capsizing? And if they do, do they always turtle, as it seems to for the 170?
Wow, sounds ugly!
Mike - Sounds really ugly. The weather man has been my friend, but sometimes stuff happens. Glad you're alright and your boat's not damaged. I would like to go out on Lake Erie more often, but bad weather forecasts prevent it. Sometimes they're wrong and it turns out that a thunder storm or the like missed us, but I've been out there in the past during a thunderstorm, not in my boat, and it was nasty. They come out of nowhere it seems. I kept an ever watchful eye out yesterday even though they weren't calling for storms. Jerry
Mike - Sounds really ugly. The weather man has been my friend, but sometimes stuff happens. Glad you're alright and your boat's not damaged. I would like to go out on Lake Erie more often, but bad weather forecasts prevent it. Sometimes they're wrong and it turns out that a thunder storm or the like missed us, but I've been out there in the past during a thunderstorm, not in my boat, and it was nasty. They come out of nowhere it seems. I kept an ever watchful eye out yesterday even though they weren't calling for storms. Jerry
Foaming the mast
Wow, so glad you and the boat are ok. Glen and I have foamed our 170 masts and capsized the boat about a dozen times. We could not get the mast to sink. I even stood on the mast head while it was in the water and could not get it to sink. The boom did sink so we foamed that as well. Now, having said that, there was not much wind when we did this, certainly no squalls. But all we had to do to right the boat was throw the mast head up into the air and the boat came right up. Glen wrote a response to this post. He has written a detailed explanation on the process and the testing. Brian
Wow, so glad you and the boat are ok. Glen and I have foamed our 170 masts and capsized the boat about a dozen times. We could not get the mast to sink. I even stood on the mast head while it was in the water and could not get it to sink. The boom did sink so we foamed that as well. Now, having said that, there was not much wind when we did this, certainly no squalls. But all we had to do to right the boat was throw the mast head up into the air and the boat came right up. Glen wrote a response to this post. He has written a detailed explanation on the process and the testing. Brian
Mast foaming
Mike, Glad you're okay, and thanks for posting your experience. Based on the advice of others in this forum, I foamed my mast, but decided to use a minimum of foam. I haven't capsized yet, so you'll have to wait a while for the endorsement. My advice: If you don't do anything else, at least drill out the rivets in the mast cap, tape over the big rectangular hole beneath the sheaves, and foam the inside of the cap. Not for flotation, but to plug and seal the opening that, based its size, is the main point of entry once the mast hits the water. After I foamed the inside of the cap and trimmed off the excess, I shot just enough foam into the top opening of the mast to create a plug about 12 inches long. While this foam was expanding, I replaced the mast cap and pop-riveted it in place. Then I sealed every rivet and rivet hole in the mast with silicone goop. Reasons for using a minimum of foam: One, if you can prevent water from entering in the first place, especially through the mast cap, you shouldn't need foam to displace water inside the tube. Two, the one-part urethane foam you buy in a can from the home supply store will not expand fully in a tightly enclosed space. (Read the label!) Based on the interior volume of the mast, and the stated yield (bead size) of the foam, a single 16-oz. can should be enough to fill 12-15 feet of mast, IF the foam were free-flowing. But in an enclosed space, it forms a plug and stops expanding. (I know this from using the same stuff to fill a cavity in a damaged tree trunk.) I believe that if you shoot a whole can into the top of your mast, you'll get some foam, and a lot of useless unexpanded goop, at the cost of an additional pound of weight aloft. Three, if I ever need to remove the foam from my mast, the 12-inch plug is short enough to excavate with a hand tool. Based on someone else's good advice, I also shot a little foam into the aft end of the boom, just enough to plug it. This should prevent or a least slow the boom from filling and submerging after a capsize. Someone in another post also made the excellent suggestion that if you can't reach the CB from the water, throw a loop of line over it, then put your weight on the line. Happy sailing. Rick
Mike, Glad you're okay, and thanks for posting your experience. Based on the advice of others in this forum, I foamed my mast, but decided to use a minimum of foam. I haven't capsized yet, so you'll have to wait a while for the endorsement. My advice: If you don't do anything else, at least drill out the rivets in the mast cap, tape over the big rectangular hole beneath the sheaves, and foam the inside of the cap. Not for flotation, but to plug and seal the opening that, based its size, is the main point of entry once the mast hits the water. After I foamed the inside of the cap and trimmed off the excess, I shot just enough foam into the top opening of the mast to create a plug about 12 inches long. While this foam was expanding, I replaced the mast cap and pop-riveted it in place. Then I sealed every rivet and rivet hole in the mast with silicone goop. Reasons for using a minimum of foam: One, if you can prevent water from entering in the first place, especially through the mast cap, you shouldn't need foam to displace water inside the tube. Two, the one-part urethane foam you buy in a can from the home supply store will not expand fully in a tightly enclosed space. (Read the label!) Based on the interior volume of the mast, and the stated yield (bead size) of the foam, a single 16-oz. can should be enough to fill 12-15 feet of mast, IF the foam were free-flowing. But in an enclosed space, it forms a plug and stops expanding. (I know this from using the same stuff to fill a cavity in a damaged tree trunk.) I believe that if you shoot a whole can into the top of your mast, you'll get some foam, and a lot of useless unexpanded goop, at the cost of an additional pound of weight aloft. Three, if I ever need to remove the foam from my mast, the 12-inch plug is short enough to excavate with a hand tool. Based on someone else's good advice, I also shot a little foam into the aft end of the boom, just enough to plug it. This should prevent or a least slow the boom from filling and submerging after a capsize. Someone in another post also made the excellent suggestion that if you can't reach the CB from the water, throw a loop of line over it, then put your weight on the line. Happy sailing. Rick
Good info on capsizing, foaming, Bobbing
Rick, Jerry, Tereza, Brian, Joe & Glenn, Thanks all for your comments. Tereza, you raise a good question regarding the 146's behavior during capsize. I haven't heard anything on this-- although I do imagine that, if capsized, you'd be able to swim into the cubby created by the raised seats in the 146-- as I did when my 170 was turtled--- and check to be sure sheets are loosed, floating items are safe, etc. I was able to get around under the 170 while turtled, to the point that I furled up the jib from underneath, got my boat's Ziploc-bagged registration papers out of my cooler-bag and into my life jacket pocket, and made sure the main was eased all the way. The only difference is that the 146 has a slight rise forward of the transom (a mini-transom of sorts) which the 170 doesn't even have, so movement up under the 146 might require a slight head-dunk to clear this lip. Rick, your discussion and procedures on foaming just the top of the mast makes perfect sense. I think I'm sold on this method (as opposed to the Hobie bob). I just love having a Windex-fly up top. I will report back as soon as I'm able to find time to foam and then test for capsize, but it sounds like a fairly tried and true method--- proven by our intrepid 170 foam-testers! Foaming the 170's boom is also an excellent idea! I never thought of the extra submersion that an open-ended boom adds to the mix! Glenn, thanks for your comments on Danny's work on the swamped Honda. I'm going to remove the spark plug tonight and try to start the motor (I've heard that this forces-- via compression-- any lingering water out of the cylinder). I'm hoping I haven't waited to long to tend to this. It's basically just been drying out in my garage. Need to remove the fuel and oil too. Again, this was an inland lake, so salt water was not an issue. Great sailing to all! Mike G.
Rick, Jerry, Tereza, Brian, Joe & Glenn, Thanks all for your comments. Tereza, you raise a good question regarding the 146's behavior during capsize. I haven't heard anything on this-- although I do imagine that, if capsized, you'd be able to swim into the cubby created by the raised seats in the 146-- as I did when my 170 was turtled--- and check to be sure sheets are loosed, floating items are safe, etc. I was able to get around under the 170 while turtled, to the point that I furled up the jib from underneath, got my boat's Ziploc-bagged registration papers out of my cooler-bag and into my life jacket pocket, and made sure the main was eased all the way. The only difference is that the 146 has a slight rise forward of the transom (a mini-transom of sorts) which the 170 doesn't even have, so movement up under the 146 might require a slight head-dunk to clear this lip. Rick, your discussion and procedures on foaming just the top of the mast makes perfect sense. I think I'm sold on this method (as opposed to the Hobie bob). I just love having a Windex-fly up top. I will report back as soon as I'm able to find time to foam and then test for capsize, but it sounds like a fairly tried and true method--- proven by our intrepid 170 foam-testers! Foaming the 170's boom is also an excellent idea! I never thought of the extra submersion that an open-ended boom adds to the mix! Glenn, thanks for your comments on Danny's work on the swamped Honda. I'm going to remove the spark plug tonight and try to start the motor (I've heard that this forces-- via compression-- any lingering water out of the cylinder). I'm hoping I haven't waited to long to tend to this. It's basically just been drying out in my garage. Need to remove the fuel and oil too. Again, this was an inland lake, so salt water was not an issue. Great sailing to all! Mike G.
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