Anybody ever replaced their 150 genoa with a 135 ? Considering a 135 to gain a little more visibility and ease of handling as I‘d like to try single handing this year.
150 genoa vs 135
- Thread starter greggkuthe
- Start date
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,087
Suspect you will enjoy the change. A little easier to handle. Quicker to tack. Unless your 150 is extremely lightweight, I think you’ll discover the 135 propels your boat more favorably in various conditions.
Once size is decided, I’m told size matters, now comes the fun of what cloth!
Once size is decided, I’m told size matters, now comes the fun of what cloth!
A friend did it on his Tartan 33. He was happy with the result. The boat sailed better in our 15 kt. sea breeze. Upwind there wasn't a sacrifice in speed or pointing. Downwind there was. But he got a PHRF rating increase that pretty much offset that. Tacking was easier and faster.
In my opinion, a 150 is a critical sail for racing into the wind in light winds. However, it has real negatives as a cruising sail:
- as you fall off the wind into a reach, the sail rapidly loses shape and efficiency.
- as afternoon winds pipe up on the Great Lakes, it generates excessive heel, and is hard to replace with a crew of one or two.
- as you note, it really limits visibility.
We have a 110, a 130, and an Asymetric spinnaker on our boat on Lake Erie. We sometimes shift up to the 130 during the doldrums of the mid-summer. But the asym is easy to deploy after rolling up the 110, and is a phenomenal sail on any angle of reaching.
In any case, fair winds and following seas as you enjoy single handling your Catalina!
- as you fall off the wind into a reach, the sail rapidly loses shape and efficiency.
- as afternoon winds pipe up on the Great Lakes, it generates excessive heel, and is hard to replace with a crew of one or two.
- as you note, it really limits visibility.
We have a 110, a 130, and an Asymetric spinnaker on our boat on Lake Erie. We sometimes shift up to the 130 during the doldrums of the mid-summer. But the asym is easy to deploy after rolling up the 110, and is a phenomenal sail on any angle of reaching.
In any case, fair winds and following seas as you enjoy single handling your Catalina!
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In general the 135 will perform about as well as a 150 when the wind is on the beam or forward once the breeze is above about 8 knots. The 135 will also be at a disadvantage if there is a lot of chop or left over slop from stronger winds, it won't have the power to plow through as easily. As the wind pipes up the 135 will not require reefing as early as the 150. Off the wind the 150 will have an advantage to a much higher wind speed.
Light wind performance loss can be partially offset by the sail design. When we replaced our 150 with a triradial designed 135. A triradial sail will hold its shape better than the typical crosscut sail and we used a laminated cloth to hold the shape better. In 4-6 knots upwind we can almost sail to the wind speed with the new main and jib.
Light wind performance loss can be partially offset by the sail design. When we replaced our 150 with a triradial designed 135. A triradial sail will hold its shape better than the typical crosscut sail and we used a laminated cloth to hold the shape better. In 4-6 knots upwind we can almost sail to the wind speed with the new main and jib.
Greg: I replaced my 150 for the same reasons you're considering the change - too much work singlehanded and poor visibility. I sold the 150 on an old Catalina 30 forum. I then purchased a 135 deck sweeper and after a few times I didn't like that sail - it was a pain getting over the safety lines and poor visibility. I sold that sail on the same forum. At this point my wife started taking notice. Normally, she didn't know half of what I bought or the true price but how am I suppose to hide a z couple of sails I'm trying to ship to someone? I finally settled on a 135 high cut and I liked that sail - easy to work and good visibility. Worked for me as a cruiser.
Visibility is a major safety issue, unless you're racing. If you're a recrestional non-racing sailor, it's kind of a no-brainer. The high cut 135 is a safety feature.
Then, of course, there's this:
A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362
Please read all three pages. Enjoy.
Oct. 2023 - Just was informed this link doesn't work anymore. Sorry, it was good while it lasted.
You could do a search here on Jib Size Selection and maybe find it. Many of the discussions on that search will be helpful. Here's a good one:
Then, of course, there's this:
A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362
Please read all three pages. Enjoy.
Oct. 2023 - Just was informed this link doesn't work anymore. Sorry, it was good while it lasted.
You could do a search here on Jib Size Selection and maybe find it. Many of the discussions on that search will be helpful. Here's a good one:
Newbie question about roller furling head sail
I've never used a roller furler but I'm thinking about getting one for my boat. My question is about the sheet. My boat has two fairleads on each side, one for the jib and one, further aft and further outboard, for the genoa. When I'm using the jib the sheet runs through the forward fairlead and...
forums.sailboatowners.com
I don’t have a Catalina 309, but I do sail on Lake Michigan.
I went from 150 (or 155) to a 135 last year.
North Sail rep asked me how often I reefed my 150 (a lot), and we decided on the 135.
I didn’t really miss the extra size, and often could fly the new 135 in winds that required a reef in the 150.
Certainly the new sail shape is better, but I think the size is also a factor.
I do wish I would have had mi ecru a bit higher. Still rubs on the bow pulpit and limits visibility (but not quite as much as the old 150.
Greg
I went from 150 (or 155) to a 135 last year.
North Sail rep asked me how often I reefed my 150 (a lot), and we decided on the 135.
I didn’t really miss the extra size, and often could fly the new 135 in winds that required a reef in the 150.
Certainly the new sail shape is better, but I think the size is also a factor.
I do wish I would have had mi ecru a bit higher. Still rubs on the bow pulpit and limits visibility (but not quite as much as the old 150.
Greg
This might be a little off track re: the question about going from a 150(5) to a 135 on a Catalina 309, but I’ve done some headsail “choreography” along the way. So here goes. The Bavaria 38E came with a Elvstrom 135 genoa which I kept for several years. In the relatively light air of the Long Beach environs it was a poor performer. To the extent that I bought a used 155 primarily for club racing which I swapped in/out on many occasions. The 155 had not been built for use on a furling drum, so it had to be tacked to the deck when used. Thus, I was stuck with it if/when the wind piped up later in the day, unless I wanted to muscle through a headsail change back to the 135. A 155 on a tape foil is a big sail to bring down and manage on a 38-ft boat in rising wind, even with three crew: one on the helm and the other two swapping out the sails. (Headsails coming off of tape foils do not stay attached to it as with the hanked-on sails.)
After about 10 years of this nonsense, being reluctant to optimize the sails for better racing duty ($$$), I actually reduced to a 120 genoa on the furler, and sold or swapped the other two headsails. As a fractional rig the Bavaria 38 has a lot of sail power in its main. The boat is still slow in light air, of course, but when moving into the 12 to 22 kt range of APPARENT wind I’m very happy with that sail plan. The boat will sail comfortably with trim-only adjustments. It’s also just much less work to tack a smaller headsail. I’d probably go down to the 135 on your Catalina, maybe even to a 120 if you’re going to be single handing.
On a masthead sloop rig, with increasing wind, the first step in shortening sail is to switch to a smaller headsail. On a fractional sloop rig, the first shortening step to maintain the boat’s trim might be to reef the mainsail, keeping up the already smaller (120) headsail, etc. I do this as needed, depending on POS. If I’m going to be reaching broad on a big wind with seas on the quarter it’s better to reduce the mainsail first, ahead of time, if one wishes to sail conservatively.
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Stu J: Here's a racing visibility situation that happened years ago in Long Beach, Ca harbor. My dock neighbor had a Newport 30 that he liked to race - why he wanted to race in that tank was beyond me but any day on the water was a good day to me.
Anyway, he had a 150 and it was just the two of us abroad for this club race. Shoreline YC had a race boat they called YELLOW JACKET - it was bright yellow. Our view to the side was obstructed. I don't know where the club boat came from. All I saw was a yellow form suddenly crossing our bow and very close. There was no time to react and we T boned into their stern quarter.- punched right through the hull but fortunately above their water line. My friend was the club commodore so the boat was repaired but he never raced the Newport again.
Anyway, he had a 150 and it was just the two of us abroad for this club race. Shoreline YC had a race boat they called YELLOW JACKET - it was bright yellow. Our view to the side was obstructed. I don't know where the club boat came from. All I saw was a yellow form suddenly crossing our bow and very close. There was no time to react and we T boned into their stern quarter.- punched right through the hull but fortunately above their water line. My friend was the club commodore so the boat was repaired but he never raced the Newport again.
We replaced our 135 with a new 135 from North. During the pre-order inspection of our boat, the North rep mentioned that we could order the sail cut to position the clew at any height we liked. This allows you to separate the issues of visibility and size, within reasonable limits of course.
We often get afternoon sea breezes of 20+ kt, so to improve furled performance we ordered the optional luff rope. The rep informed us that luff rope tends to resist mildew better than luff foam. The rope does create a noticeably smoother luff when furled, all the way down to to perhaps the size of a 100, compared to our old sail with a "plain" luff. The new sail is really versatile, very happy with it.
Hope this is helpful.
We often get afternoon sea breezes of 20+ kt, so to improve furled performance we ordered the optional luff rope. The rep informed us that luff rope tends to resist mildew better than luff foam. The rope does create a noticeably smoother luff when furled, all the way down to to perhaps the size of a 100, compared to our old sail with a "plain" luff. The new sail is really versatile, very happy with it.
Hope this is helpful.
You haven't said what you are going to do with your 150. Are you keeping it or trading it in? Is it in good shape or not so good? The previous owner of my boat sailed on Buzzards Bay, which is known for the stiff SWerly breezes. He had a 150 and bought a 135 as the smaller sail made sense. I'm glad he kept both. The 135 was supposedly in better shape and it made sense at our location because we also have stiff thermal breezes as our usual summer pattern. 2 seasons back, I needed to repair the UV protection and had difficulty getting the job done (It's still not done!) so I have been using the 150 in the interim. It was in much better shape than I anticipated and it has served me well, but I reef it more frequently for sure.
My point is that if your 150 is in decent shape, a 135 could very well be the better selection. I think you will find it more versatile, and if you already have a serviceable 150, then why get another? If I had to live with one vs the other, I would definitely choose the 135. Our sailing has winds in the 18 to 25 knot range frequently throughout the summer and the 150 would typically be reefed just about every afternoon as the thermals kick in.
I often solo sail and always liked my old 150 for light wind days, but I hated the pour visibility. Plus, the foot of the sail chafed on the pulpit rail. When I had a new genoa made about six or seven years ago I stuck with a 150 and raised the foot of the sail enough to clear the rail. Honestly, it’s reefed down to 135, 120 or less more often than not (Luff foam is key to good sail shape.), but the visibility issue is solved and I still have the larger sail area when I want it. I don’t miss, or even notice, whatever sail area I may have technically lost off the foot of the sail. It’s worth the peace of mind of the improved visibility.
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jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,087
That image sure makes me instantly understand your enjoyment from “peace of mind”.
Pictures are worth maybe a thousand words.
For how I sail and where I sail (Lake Michigan), a 135 is a much better choice. On a day where I'm doing a lot of tacking, getting a 150 past the shrouds gets old. A 135 is much easier, and provides the power I need most of the time. Because I mostly daysail, if there isn't enough wind for the 135, I just go home.