12v Cabin lighting

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Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
This thread raises 2 issues, one general to this ilk of Hunters and perhaps other boats as well, and the other specific to my ineptitude.

General: I decided to replace the festoon incandescent bulbs in the overhead fixtures with LEDs. When opened them up, I found that because the festoon bulbs are torpedo shaped, they give off considerable heat in all directions. Some of the wires to these bulbs were actually touching the glass between the bulb and the fixture causing the insulation to blacken and in some cases char through. Surprisingly, all still worked after 25 years. Nevertheless, breaking the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule, I opted to replace any wire that was questionable. The nice thing about the LEDs is that the actual light emitters are only on one side of the "bulb" and because it is flat on the other side, there is room to run the wires between the bulb and fixture without them touching anything. You might wish to check yours out as well.

Specific: As I whined in an earlier thread, the PO replaced the bow light wire between the switch/breaker at the panel, and where it exits the V-Berth. The wire runs inside the starboard headliner along with the blue wires that power the cabin lights.

So I am testing and pondering and doing a little tugging and finally decide to run a new wire. I disconnect the old wire to the bow light, clean up a few connections at the panel, and lo and behold, now, and never before, the breaker to the cabin lights pops every time I throw it. So I figure the possibilities are, probably in order of likelihood:

1. In replacing or insulating a bad wire in one or of the overhead fixtures, I screwed up. Will have to check each one carefully [how can you really screw something that simple up!?]. I will have to check for voltage and continuity at each of the fixtures. Most likely, since the fixtures are wired in series, where they are double crimped [what is the correct terminology here?] at each fixture it is possible that somehow only one wire is really making contact. This would deny power down the line from there. Or maybe, now that I think of it, I may have allowed one of the spade terminals to make contact with the fixture and it is grounding it. I wonder why it is not common practice to put something non-conductive on the fixture underneath each spade?

2. In pulling and tugging on the bow light wires [should have nothing in common with cabin lighting other than they run in the same space], I disturbed a sleeping electrical gremlin.

3. In cleaning up the panel, I disconnected or connected something incorrectly. Again, Hunter gang crimped all the blue cabin lights to one breaker switch. If that lug is put back were it came off of, and the black wire makes contact at the common bus, theoretically, that should get juice to the fixtures independent of act of incompetence I inflicted elsewhere.
 

kenn

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Apr 18, 2009
1,271
CL Sandpiper 565 Toronto
Most likely, since the fixtures are wired in series ...
Don't you mean "parallel"? If not could you expand a bit on how the cabin lights are wired... tiny diagram, maybe?

If the cabin breaker pops immediately, you have something approaching a hard short.

When you were putting in the LEDs, did you confirm the polarity of the connections? Did the new LEDs light at all before you started having breaker pops?

I'm thinking that some multi-LED bulbs might have a reverse biased diode across the input to protect the LEDs against transient reverse voltages, which would appear as a short if the LED bulb was hooked up backwards.

One simple test is with a multimeter set to measure resistance, or for bonus points also has a diode-checker setting.

With the cabin breaker off, measure the resistance between the circuit side of the cabin light breaker and ground. If you get a couple of ohms or less, and the reading is the same when you reverse the meter probes, you have a wiring or mechanical short. If the reading changes when you reverse the probes (eg a few ohms in one direction, and open or very high resistance in the other) there's a semiconductor in there somewhere. If you have a diode checker setting, try that, and if you get roughly 0.6 in one direction and nothing in the other... you have a diode tripping the breaker.

Another approach - you could clip the meter leads onto the circuit as above, set to resistance, and remove the bulbs one by one. if the resistance shoots up after a bulb is removed that LED bulb is either in backwards or defective.
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
"Don't you mean "parallel"? If not could you expand a bit on how the cabin lights are wired... tiny diagram, maybe?"

Kenn, if I were a better electrician, I would probably know the difference between wired in "parallel" and "series". What I mean is that it is done the way ac plugs are wired in one room of a home: From plug to plug like a daisy chain.

"If the cabin breaker pops immediately, you have something approaching a hard short."

Here I assume you mean that the hot wire is somehow grounded?

"When you were putting in the LEDs, did you confirm the polarity of the connections? "

I did a quick search on 12volttechnology and they confirmed your statement that LEDs have polarity: "he Bulb does not turn on what do I do?
LED lights work differently than traditional incandescent lighting and are polarity sensitive try turning the bulb around and re-installing." I will take a look at one that happened to work to see if I can tell which direction is proper. I notice they sell some LEDs that are "no polarity". I should have keyed off that. This is the most plausible explanation of all since it would be pretty hard to cross wires in these fixtures.
"Did the new LEDs light at all before you started having breaker pops?"

Yes the first 3 I put in as a test worked great. The rest came from a different vendor so possible the first batch was not polarity sensitive but the second batch is. I got the popping only after inserting LEDs from the second batch.

"Another approach - you could clip the meter leads onto the circuit as above, set to resistance, and remove the bulbs one by one. if the resistance shoots up after a bulb is removed that LED bulb is either in backwards or defective."

This looks like the best test to try and one very likely to isolate the problem. I'm going to do it as soon as I have time to get back to the boat.

Kenn, I really appreciate your analysis. I think it will prove to be correct and a real lifesaver. I was dreading the idea of some short somewhere in the headliner.
 

LloydB

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Jan 15, 2006
927
Macgregor 22 Silverton
1. remove all but the three bulbs that worked 2. if they now work again remove the last in line and if the other two work you have a parallel circuit and you can test one of the new bulbs in the now vacant (working bulb) slot.
Always make a wire diagram of each circuit as you go that way you can turn back on what worked and off or fix what doesn't.

"Kenn, if I were a better electrician, I would probably know the difference between wired in "parallel" and "series". What I mean is that it is done the way ac plugs are wired in one room of a home: From plug to plug like a daisy chain." You'er kidding right?
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
Not kidding about either Lloyd. I am that bad an electrician, and there are 2 blues and 2 blacks at the panel switch/breaker. I assume one set goes starboard, one port. At the closest fixture to the panel, 1 blue and 1 black come in and are crimped together at the spade terminal with the wires that power the next fixture.
 
May 6, 2012
303
Hunter 28.5 Jordan, ON
Not kidding about either Lloyd. I am that bad an electrician, and there are 2 blues and 2 blacks at the panel switch/breaker. I assume one set goes starboard, one port. At the closest fixture to the panel, 1 blue and 1 black come in and are crimped together at the spade terminal with the wires that power the next fixture.
Yes, that's parallel. The lamp at fixture one is not a part of the circuit going to the lamp at fixture two (if lamp one is blown or removed, the circuit to fixture two isn't interrupted).

In series there would only be one wire in, and one wire out at each fixture.
 
Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
Problem Found! Well I wish it had been reverse polarity in the replacement LEDs, but alas it was not. It was a bad socket in the starboard reading lamp in the V-Berth. I pulled all the LEDs and the cabin light breaker continued to pop. Pulled the incandescent bulb out the that fixture and the breaker held. There is no way to replace or repair this socket, so I will have to replace both fixtures.
 

bletso

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Aug 20, 2013
106
Globe 38 PCB
I tried a couple of LED's and at least the ones I tried gave off an inferior light to the incandescent bulbs. (Not as bright and a different hue) Where are you getting your LED replacement bulbs?
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,216
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Yes, a couple of things to look for.. 1, a wide voltage capability.. like 10-16 min. volts.. means it has a voltage stabilizer to keep the light output constant with varying volts.. and 2, Look for a color temperature around the 3000 mark for light that is "warm white" and not the cool or cold bluish white.. Look for something around 100 lumens and you'll be happy with the bulbs for interior cabin.. Click on "Automotive LED" on this site : http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=72
Look at dimensions carefully to see if the bulb will fit in existing fixture. Under the "festoon" type bulbs, there is a bulb that goes into the Aqua Signal 25 nav lights.. I am trying one in warm white and note that it is equal to the original Aqua Signal incandescent in color and brightness.. it draws 3 tenths of an ampere ..
 
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