11.1 v li ion batteries

Jan 9, 2011
19
beneteau 311 willsboro
I'm seeing advertised li-ion batteries and they come in basically 3.7 v packs. so you get 3.7v,7.4v ,11.1v and 14.8 volt. If you were making a house bank would you step up to 12 v or stepdown?
To give you an idea one pack offered "
LiPo 11.1V 10000mAh Rechargeable Battery Pack (3S1P, 111Wh, 9A Rate)" for around $130.00
 
Oct 26, 2010
2,143
Hunter 40.5 Beaufort, SC
I'm seeing advertised li-ion batteries and they come in basically 3.7 v packs. so you get 3.7v,7.4v ,11.1v and 14.8 volt. If you were making a house bank would you step up to 12 v or stepdown?
To give you an idea one pack offered "
LiPo 11.1V 10000mAh Rechargeable Battery Pack (3S1P, 111Wh, 9A Rate)" for around $130.00[/QUOTE

So you are saying a 10 AH battery for $130. So to get to 100 AH you'd spend $1,300? 200 AH would be $2,600 etc. Wow!! Guess I'm reading this wrong or you have more money than I do.
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
The batteries you are looking at are for small electronics and low voltage, very high draw things like drones. A 10,000 mAh battery would be virtually useless in an application like a house bank. I have 4, 5000 MaH 6 cell units in my large drone and I only get 15 minutes flight time from it. If you run these batteries below about 10v they're done.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
You would not use LiPo hobby/RC cells for a boat. You would use LiFePO4 chemistry prismatic cells with a properly designed BMS and properly wired load and charge bus. All charge sources would be programmed for charging a LiFePO4 bank and be adequately wired so a BMS break away won't fry the charge sources or cause a voltage transient on the load bus.. Even done DIY you are looking at 2K to 6K plus.. Hobby/RC LiCoO2/LiPo batteries are not well suited for boats and are far too dangerous and volatile. LiFePO4 is far safer but still very easy to destroy if not done correctly..
 
Jan 9, 2011
19
beneteau 311 willsboro
I was thinking in comparison with other li ion batteries. Of course it doesn't make sense against conventional batteries
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I was thinking in comparison with other li ion batteries.
See post #4.

This type of Li battery (usually LiCoO2) is not suitable for a marine application. LiFePO4 prismatic cells are what are used and what are reasonably safe if the system is designed correctly.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
Have you guys seen all the videos of burning hover boards? Got to treat Li with respect. Also a lot of those ebay batteries are sketchy. You have to ask yourself why Panasonic, LG and Samsung batteries max out at 2.5ahr how is it possible that the "Surefire" batteries can have 6ahr for a fraction of the price.
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Anytime one of these hobby grade units is damaged in any way it's a fire hazard. I wouldn't trust one out of sight connected to any kind of charge circuit, and there's no way I'd ever trust one on the boat. Ever.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
So Lithium is sort of tricky but accepts charge really fast
How about NiCad? I get the whole voltage of the cell drives you to having to set up your system to support that but my understanding is that NiCad accept charge pretty well. Much better than Pb acid
Thoughts?
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
The only reason I bring it up is submarines used to use them while on battery power. I know they come in industrial sizes and capacities
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Energy density is the advantage of Lithium batteries. That's why Boeing used them in the 787. Clearly they can be used, but that high energy density also comes with a cost of greater possibility of disaster. The 787 batteries are now encased in a metal enclosure vented to outside air. Airbus chose to not go that route most likely due to the bad press associated with a failure.
I don't think any of us are have the resources to make them work well safely for us. I'll wait until development is more mature.
Ken
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,093
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I am kinda surprised no one is "Marinizing" the smaller hybrid car batteries with the charge monitoring system.. and software. They seem to be pretty robust?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Boeing used them in the 787. Clearly they can be used, but that high energy density also comes with a cost of greater possibility of disaster. I don't think any of us are have the resources to make them work well safely for us.
Lithium batteries, the LiFePO4 (LFP) chemistry not LiCoO2 (Boeing), have been in use on boats now since about 2007-2008. Mastervolt, Genasun, Victron and Bruce Schwab's Li3 system being the most prevalent. There are also lots of custom LiFePO4 builds out there.

I have been running LiFePO4 on my own boat for 4 years with zero issues. LiFePO4 batteries have proven themselves to be quite safe but they are not immune from being ruined (read huge wallet dent) by incorrect charging, over-charging or over-discharging.

Today LFP for Boats:
  • LFP is not really ready for mass prime time DIY's
  • Factory made systems are expensive(at face value)
The LiFePO4 chemistry should not be compared to the Boeing LiCoO2 batteries and to do so is like comparing being addicted to chocolate to being addicted to opiates. In terms of safety LiFePO4 and LiCoO2 are not even in the same ball park. I actually stopped using LiPo (LiCoO2) in my kids RC stuff because it is an extremely unstable Li chemistry even if you know exactly what you are doing.

In regards to our boat, you could not pay me to go back to lead acid, but that's me. LFP is simply not ready for all but a select few who will have the skill set & electrical knowledge & grasp to DIY an LFP build or deep enough pockets to purchase a factory made LFP system.

Our LFP bank now has over 750 cycles, with most cycles to 80% DOD, and the Ah capacity, which has been tested every 50 cycles, has not dropped off.

If one is interested in LFP I would urge you to consider talking to Bruce Schwab about his Li3 Marine system.

For more reading on the subject:
LiFePO4 On Boats


.
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Thanks Main Sail. That's interesting indeed. How does the energy density compare with conventional batteries?
Ken
 
Feb 22, 2004
222
Hunter H340 Michigan City
Unless you are a chemical and electrical engineer NEVER EVER try to build your own pack disaster is waiting for you. They are safe if designed properly and Chinese cells are not used. The hover board fires are probably a result of some buyer saving a few bucks on a cheap pack made in China. Never use RC LiPo for anything on your boat just a real problem. Be safe.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Unless you are a chemical and electrical engineer NEVER EVER try to build your own pack disaster is waiting for you.
Those are some strong absolutes. There have been plenty of non-factory LFP builds in the marine space that show these absolutes as not absolute.... A large portion of LFP on boats is currently being done by DIY's and done quite safely.

The worst I have seen with LiFePO4, is cells destroyed by over voltage or over discharge and a big fat dent in the wallet. People do the same with lead acid batteries too...

As a member of the committee tasked with coming up with the marine high capacity battery standards (been in the works for over three years) I have seen and been involved in getting to the bottom of any event with LFP that we have come across, including investigating forum mentioned LFP events.. We have been unable to find a boat fire started by LiFePO4 due to a runaway event. We found alternator fires (Rainmaker before she was abandoned in a storm due to a rig failure), inappropriate/inadequate over current protection fires & improper design (external to the battery) leading to fires but we've yet to identify a case of thermal runaway from a LiFePO4 battery leading to a fire. Bulged cells yes, venting cells due to chronic over charge 1 case, & ruined cells yes, but no boat fires caused by LFP..

They are safe if designed properly
LiFePO4 = absolutely

and Chinese cells are not used.
Completely untrue. Chinese prismatic cells lead the industry and everyone from Mastervolt, Victron, Genasun, and everywhere in between, is using Chinese made prismatic cells.

The premium prismatic cells in the industry currently come from: CALB, Sinopoly, GBS, Thundersky/Winston, Hi-Power, Voltronix, RealForce etc. and these are all Chinese made prismatic cells. Heck even big companies like LG, Samsung and Panasonic are building Li cells in China these days despite the appearance they may be Japanese..

Even Massachusetts based A123, who builds some of their cylindrical cells in the US, also builds cells in China. Interestingly the only recall A123 has had was for their US built cells while their Chinese cylindrical cells did not require a recall.

The hover board fires are probably a result of some buyer saving a few bucks on a cheap pack made in China. Never use RC LiPo for anything on your boat just a real problem. Be safe.
The idea that China can't make good quality products is a falsehood just like in the 70's when every US auto maker was laughing at the "Japs". Today Toyota is the #1 or #2 car maker in the world (battling with Volkswagen) and today Japanese auto makers such as Honda and Toyota still lead the world in automotive reliability measures. The Chinese can build incredible products, and some real low budget stuff, just depends on what you spec and how you QC it.

LiPo and LifePO4 are not the same and hoover boards were not using LiFePO4 (such as the A123 26650) nor were they using LFP prismatic cells. These devices were using 18650 LiPo / LiCoO2 cells which are a super high energy density, yet very volatile and a rather unstable Li chemistry. Comparing the LiPo hoover board fires to LiFePO4 is a very misleading comparison...
 
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Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Thanks Main Sail. That's interesting indeed. How does the energy density compare with conventional batteries?
Ken
Ken,

That is a tough one to answer because when compared to lead there are far too many ways to evaluate that equation. LiFePO4 is nowhere near as energy dense as LiCoO2 but leaps & bounds beyond lead. Often when comparing Li to Li we use Wh to Kg or Wh to Liter but with lead this does not translate well because the "C" rate changes the capacity rather drastically where with Li it does not.

To equal the usable cruising capacity of our 400Ah LiFePO4 battery, which is 320Ah's (100% SOC to 80% DOD), I would need a 900Ah lead acid bank cycled (50% SOC to 85% SOC). However, that is only part of the story. To equal the real world cycle life, using lead acid, I would need to be shallow cycling that lead acid battery by about 10% or a depth of discharge to just 90% SOC which would mean a lead acid bank of approx 3200 Ah's...

USABLE CAPACITY RANGE:

Approx 80% of an LFP banks capacity is fully usable. With lead acid you often have just 30-35% usable capacity (50% SOC to 80-85% SOC) due to charge acceptance current limiting. With LFP current limiting or acceptance taper is very, very short in duration, even at relatively low charging voltages of 13.8V - 14.0V.

CHARGING SPEED:
Very, very short current taper even with large current sources. Charge to nearly full before even attaining absorption voltage. This of course is entirely dependent on your charging voltage and your current source. We charge at 120A steady (160A alt set up to run at 120A continuously) and our current taper lasts only 30-35 minutes. If I bumped the voltage to 14.2V, which I won't do but could, I could charge to 100% SOC with about 4-5 minutes of current taper. Compare that to HOURS and HOURS of current limited charging using a 120A charge source on 400Ah lead acid batteries. With a small charge source, like solar or wind, we will hit 99.5%+ SOC before any current limiting occurs. Our bank literally has to be chock full before our solar array can even get to 13.8V.... These batteries can take immense current, and charge extremely fast, but really tend to do extremely well with .3C to .5C in charge current.

WEIGHT/SPACE:
Less than half the weight of lead Ah to Ah and almost always more compact. Our 400Ah LFP bank weighs 182 pounds less than a 400Ah lead acid AGM high performance bank. However, to equal the usable capacity of a 400Ah LFP bank one would would need approx 900Ah's of lead acid. This makes the 400Ah LFP bank approx 400 - 700 pounds lighter (depends upon lead batteries chosen) than the equivalent usable capacity in lead acid.. This is another reason why it is tough to put an energy density figure on Li when comparing to lead acid.

LEAD IS HEAVY:
The typical lead acid bank consists of 65-70% of the weight being comprised of what I prefer to call "dead lead" or the excess lead you carry around but that you can not actually use, for optimal cycle life. If you have a usable capacity of just 30-35% of the bank, when out cruising, this means that you are carrying around 65-70% of that weight in unusable dead lead capacity. Our 400Ah LFP bank weighs 130 pounds & a full 80% of it's capacity is readily usable. This means just 20% of it we are choosing not to use or you simply don't want to use it for best longevity. As a result, we carry around a meager 26 pounds of unusable LFP battery on our boat.

If we want to equal the usable capacity of this 400Ah LFP bank in lead, we would need 8 GC2 6V golf cart batteries or approx 900Ah's. If you wanted a high performance AGM system you'd be looking at approx 700 pounds of TPPL AGM battery. 35% of 900Ah is a usable capacity of 315Ah's. 80% of the 400Ah LFP bank is a usable capacity or 320 Ah's. The 900Ah lead bank weighs 520 pounds for GC2's or 702 pounds for TPPL AGM.. If you use just 35% of the GC2 bank then you are hauling around 338 pounds of "dead lead" or 338 pounds of unusable capacity adn 456 pounds of unusable capacity for the TPPL AGM bank. Twenty six pounds of unused LFP or 338-456 pounds of "dead lead".. Energy density/usability points to ponder...

STEADY VOLTAGE:
Another un-measurable benefit not often included in energy density discussions is that LFP banks have a very strong & flat charge & discharge curve with a very steep & fast rise or drop at either end. These ends are called the "knee's". LFP's will maintain voltages well above that of any fully charged lead acid bank, and remain very close to their 3.3VPC / 13.2V nominal voltage level. They will hold extremely steady voltages, with little change, all the way to 80% DOD. They will maintain this very tight voltage range even under normal house loads. Espar heaters, refrigeration, watermakers, windlass and winch motors etc. etc. will all perform better. Your equipment likes higher voltages and dislikes voltage sag. Even bilge pumps will pump more water. Voltage sag that can drop out electronics during bow thruster or windlass use is almost entirely eliminated.

CHARGING EFFICIENCY:
Charge efficiency is also referred to as the Coulombic efficiency. These batteries are as near 100% efficient as I have ever seen on my test bench. Take 200Ah's out and put 200 Ah's back in and you hit the voltage and net accepted current at almost the exact same Ah's out to Ah's in. Until LFP I had never witnessed anything like this, even with the best AGM's. Lead acid ranges from 70% to as high as 90% +/- efficient but you still need to put back in 10-30% more than you took out, and this is with healthy lead acid batteries. The last 5% can be less than 50% efficient meaning your solar or other energy source is being 50% wasted when pushing towards 100% SOC, as you need to. As lead acid batteries sulfate the charge efficiency or Coulombic efficiency gets even worse.

NO NEED TO RECHARGE TO 100% SOC:
We know the Achilles heel of lead is sulfation and in order to fight off sulfation we need to charge them to 100% SOC as often as possible. This proves very difficult for many boaters and cruisers unless your boat resides at a dock after each sail or sits on a mooring with an adequate solar system. LFP batteries do not need to get back to 100% SOC. This is a major win for LFP. When we come back from a weekend on the water, and our battery is at 30% SOC, I really don't care. I shut down the boat, and the solar, and go home. LFP batteries actually prefer to sit at 50-60% SOC rather than at 90-100%.. Nothing to do with energy density but everything to do with not needing to waste energy or worry about ruing the batteries because you failed to get back to 100% SOC.

SULFATION DAMAGE FROM PSOC USE, WHAT'S THAT?
Sulfation is by far and away the cancer and #1 killer of lead acid batteries. LFP batteries do not sulfate, no cancer, so there is no need or worry about constantly getting back to 100% SOC before you leave your boat. Lead acid batteries deal the most poorly in the actual way we use our boats no matter how energy dense they are or are not, when compared to LFP.

Energy density is really a non-issue if we look at all the other benefits. Course LFP is far from a perfect "drop in replacement" but how you use it can mean major differences between lead and LFP