A few short Cat22 newbie questions

[BVLew]

Thanks for earlier replies to my queries about scuppers and mast/electrical connections. Scuppers are in, I've decided to address electrical in the off-season.

Now that I've had the 1984 C-22 out a few times, I'm wondering if the POs EVER actually sailed with it over the last 42 years! No outhaul, no boom vang, original Arco winches with cam cleats not on risers so the winches jam with more than 2 wraps.....

New 4-1 outhaul now on, vang goes on next weekend, went with "Barton Winchers" for now until I get the boat-bucks for new self-tailing winches (I mostly singlehand). Also added a Tiller Tamer, winch handle holder (I don't have coaming cubbies -- again, where did POs put the handle while out?), miscellaneous little tweaks.

Now a few quick questions, even after reviewing the various editions of the Tech Manuals....

* What tiller extensions are people using? I don't quite have the tools/skills for making the one in the 2014 Tech Manual. CD offers two: 19-32" and 27-48". Any preferences? Other options?

* I still have a wire main halyard, no winch on mast or cabin-top. So: Can I switch to all-rope halyard? If so, recommendations for what to use? I have no bands on mast or boom -- does main just go up as far as I can get it (I do have a downhaul, no cunningham), or does head end up caught by backstay? Where does band go on boom?

* What amount of heel does the C-22 like? I was surprised to be at 15-20 degrees in 10-12 knots, with full main and 135 genoa, just me on board. Felt overpowered but it wasn't that windy. Is this normal?

* If I decide to just remount cam-cleats (instead of getting self-tailing winches), is the CD (Harken) angled cleat riser the best option? Other choices people have preferred?

More to come, I'm sure . Thanks for all your help and wisdom.

Bruce

 

[cephius (Dave)]

If you felt overpowered, you were! 10-12 knots is about the max for a day sailor. Reduce sail! You know your overpowered when the rudder can't correct the weather helm. As for heel, racers try to keep their boats flat. The C22 is well designed. Sail at a heel angle you are comfortable at. Keep water out of the cockpit You will soon learn where the boar performs best at.

 

[ShawnL]

I have a '74. Most of the things you mention were considered "normal" from the factory. No boom vang, tiny traveler, small winches. Mine didn't even have cam cleats, old-school T-cleats.

I've never needed the winch handle. The loads are small enough that with 2-3 wraps on the winch, my wife can manage the jib just fine. I added harken cam cleats a year or 2 ago, just to make life easier. Added a bang a year or 2 before that.

My mast wasn't marked or anything either. When I got a new main last year, I just raised it all the way, pulled the boom down until it was pretty much as tight as I thought I would ever want it and tightened the stop the boom sits on.

If you want to switch to all rope halyards, I believe you need to change the rollers at the top of the mast. Take look at the Catalina Direct kits -- see what parts they provide for the conversion. CD is not always the lowest cost, but their kits are usually well put together and will show you what they think you need for the job.

 

[Stu Jackson]

went with "Barton Winchers" for now until I get the boat-bucks for new self-tailing winches (I mostly singlehand)

I did the same with our 1981 C22 from 1983 to 1987, and with our 1981 C25 for 11 years from 87-98. Neither boat had cam cleats, just horn cleats, which i rarely used (in windy SF Bay!). You may well consider there are better places to put your $$ than self tailing winches because what you have with the Winchers is more than adequate.

I've decided to address electrical in the off-season.

Buy Charlies Wing's book:

Amazon.com

 

[Benny17441]

Thanks for earlier replies to my queries about scuppers and mast/electrical connections. Scuppers are in, I've decided to address electrical in the off-season.

Now that I've had the 1984 C-22 out a few times, I'm wondering if the POs EVER actually sailed with it over the last 42 years! No outhaul, no boom vang, original Arco winches with cam cleats not on risers so the winches jam with more than 2 wraps.....

New 4-1 outhaul now on, vang goes on next weekend, went with "Barton Winchers" for now until I get the boat-bucks for new self-tailing winches (I mostly singlehand). Also added a Tiller Tamer, winch handle holder (I don't have coaming cubbies -- again, where did POs put the handle while out?), miscellaneous little tweaks.

Now a few quick questions, even after reviewing the various editions of the Tech Manuals....

* What tiller extensions are people using? I don't quite have the tools/skills for making the one in the 2014 Tech Manual. CD offers two: 19-32" and 27-48". Any preferences? Other options?

* I still have a wire main halyard, no winch on mast or cabin-top. So: Can I switch to all-rope halyard? If so, recommendations for what to use? I have no bands on mast or boom -- does main just go up as far as I can get it (I do have a downhaul, no cunningham), or does head end up caught by backstay? Where does band go on boom?

* What amount of heel does the C-22 like? I was surprised to be at 15-20 degrees in 10-12 knots, with full main and 135 genoa, just me on board. Felt overpowered but it wasn't that windy. Is this normal?

* If I decide to just remount cam-cleats (instead of getting self-tailing winches), is the CD (Harken) angled cleat riser the best option? Other choices people have preferred?

More to come, I'm sure . Thanks for all your help and wisdom.

Bruce

Don't get hooked on gadgets or fixtures designed for much bigger boats, them will just complicate your sailing. The C22 will not need a boom vang, self tailing winches, lazy jacks, roller furlers, or anchor windlass. For sailing solo an outhaul for the headsail is a safety item. The Tiller Tamer is just part of the equation to keep the boat on course while unattended, the sails must be trimmed for balance to maintain a course without fighting the rudder. Some use bungy cords on the tiller for "sheet to tiller steering" . Tiller extensions, some like them, I tried one and found it clumsy. A 10-12 knot breeze is a respectable wind speed for a C-22 and a heel of 15 to 20 degrees under those conditions seems normal. There is a saying of old, that when you first feel the boat is overpowered, that's the time to reef. You can sail it in higher winds but you should be willing to work harder powering and depowering through the gusts with the main sheet in hand or quick changes in course to adjust the angle of attack. It is best to learn how to sail with the most basic tools and once you gain some experience your own needs for any changes or improvements will become evident.

 

[Stu Jackson]

A boom vang is definitely a good thing to have on a C22 because once the mainsheet is let out some the boom WILL rise; you want and need to be able to control it. Winchers would be great to have. Otherwise, I agree completely.

The C22 will not need a boom vang, self tailing winches, lazy jacks, roller furlers, or anchor windlass.

 

[Woodworks1]

At 10 knots of wind, a sail experiences roughly 0.33 to 0.40 pounds of wind pressure per square foot. A Catalina 22 has 200 sq ft of sail area or there about.
I am in my 70s and sailing larger sail planes now. I miss being a real part of the naval architecture ratios.

 

[morbidfollower]

Idk, I regularly sail in over 20knots with no problem. 1 reef in and working jib. I like the boat to sail as flat as possible. However to achieve this you need all the sail controls. Boom vang, outhaul, Cunningham, jib sheet tracks, working traveler, adjustable backstay. IF you're just lake sailing you can get by without some of these just fine, but for flat sailing you need the proper controls imo. Also mind how you load the boat with stuff, it makes a difference.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Cam cleats are great except when under great load. Then they're a bear to release. Horn cleats take a few extra seconds but are pretty versatile and are easy to release under load if wrapped correctly. My O'Day 25 had a cam cleat on the main sheet and horn cleats on the genoa sheets. The genoa was a large 150%.

 

[Gene Neill]

We don't have an outhaul, or a Cunningham. Never have, never will, not on a C22 anyway.

We have self tailing winches, but I don't think I would do that again if I had a choice. Maybe on a new design, definitely not on an '84. Your cockpit coaming is SO much better than the new design's, you don't need them. (Sometimes I wonder if I ever needed jib winches at all, but that's another story).

Gotta have a vang for sure, and an adjustable backstay is sure helpful.

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

Sailing in 10+ with a full main and 135 is certainly fully powered up. To depower the boat you would need max halyard tension for main and headsail, and lots of outhaul on the main. You want to flatten both sails. I suspect your sails are old and stretched out. When the wind picks up the sail will stretch more and the draft will increase and move aft - which is the worst that can happen.

Reef the main (and headsail if possible). Sail the boat a lot. If you love it, then think about investing in new sails.

Good luck and have fun.

Barry

 

[morbidfollower]

We don't have an outhaul, or a Cunningham. Never have, never will, not on a C22 anyway.

We have self tailing winches, but I don't think I would do that again if I had a choice. Maybe on a new design, definitely not on an '84. Your cockpit coaming is SO much better than the new design's, you don't need them. (Sometimes I wonder if I ever needed jib winches at all, but that's another story).

Gotta have a vang for sure, and an adjustable backstay is sure helpful.

Sailing area and typical wind conditions definitely are a factor. I agree with Gene on not adding the self tailing winches, or other unnecessary things. I think we all go crazy when we first get our boats (which is kinda half the fun) but simplicity rules the day. Gene not sure how you get by without an adjustable outhaul, Cunningham is unnecessary I agree and I typically have it set and forget.

 

[Lightnsail]

Don't get hooked on gadgets or fixtures designed for much bigger boats, them will just complicate your sailing. The C22 will not need a boom vang, self tailing winches, lazy jacks, roller furlers, or anchor windlass. For sailing solo an outhaul for the headsail is a safety item. The Tiller Tamer is just part of the equation to keep the boat on course while unattended, the sails must be trimmed for balance to maintain a course without fighting the rudder. Some use bungy cords on the tiller for "sheet to tiller steering" . Tiller extensions, some like them, I tried one and found it clumsy. A 10-12 knot breeze is a respectable wind speed for a C-22 and a heel of 15 to 20 degrees under those conditions seems normal. There is a saying of old, that when you first feel the boat is overpowered, that's the time to reef. You can sail it in higher winds but you should be willing to work harder powering and depowering through the gusts with the main sheet in hand or quick changes in course to adjust the angle of attack. It is best to learn how to sail with the most basic tools and once you gain some experience your own needs for any changes or improvements will become evident.

Have to disagree with the no boom vang comment. You can maintain a much better sail shape going downwind with one.

 

[ShawnL]

I had a cunningham on my old bolt-rope sail, and went ahead and got it again 2 years ago when I purchased a new loose-footed main. Honestly, I've never used it. I probably should learn more about it at some point. Also debated about 1 or 2 reef points. Old sail had 2, with the new one I went with one. Figured, if I needed the 2nd reef we were no longer having fun and realistically would just drop sail and start the outboard.

 

[BVLew]

Thanks everyone for your contributions. This summer is literally my 60th year sailing, and I've sailed everything from 8' dinghies to 60' ocean-racers, so I've got a few opinions of my own . I grew up sailing on San Francisco Bay, so I love (and always want to be ready for) steady 20-knot winds.

I won't be racing, but I've done a lot of it, and good sail trim is at the core of my sailing. So an outhaul and a boomvang are non-negotiable. As long as the boom is free to slide, I'm agnostic on downhaul vs. cunningham. I waited on the tiller-extension before making a few outings, but I quickly found that I'm too used to having one -- when a puff comes, I want to shift positions and can't always reach the tiller.

I've cleared enough wraps on winches to think that good line leads are critical, especially since I mostly singlehand. I'll see how the Winchers work -- they were quicker and easier than adding risers to the cam cleats. But maybe I won't need the full self-tailing winches. (BTW, I'm fully on team "no cam cleats for halyards -- too much risk of jamming; no horn cleats for sheets -- too hard to uncleat and play the sheet.")

Bought a new reefing line today*, so will plan on reefing early. Will also try the 135 only partially unrolled -- it has a foam luff and the Harken furler manual says it can be used for reefing as well as furling. I agree: new sails are probably not too far in the future.

Again, thanks for sharing your perspectives.

Bruce

* Today I sold the old boat, Catalina 30 "Rivendell"! Bought the reefing line at the yard where new owner had the boat hauled before finalizing the purchase, to check the keel, rudder, and other below-the-waterline stuff. Classic "best days of a sailor's life are the day s/he buys the boat and day s/he sells it"!

 

[danooxnard]

I have lazy jacks on my c22 and I love them. Super useful. Winchers are waste of money, in my opinion.
Dano

 

[Gene Neill]

Gene not sure how you get by without an adjustable outhaul

Okay well I technically do have an outhaul, but it's only a 1:1 purchase, so I can't really change the sail shape with it.

I have two reef points, an adjustable backstay, a vang, and a main sheet. I can't imagine needing any more controls on this size main. Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing?

 

[Lightnsail]

If racing, a usable outhaul is really helpful on downwind legs.

 

[Captain Grey Beard]

Be careful with your boom vangs!
My boat was raced pretty hard before I got a hold of her. And the boom was bent right at the vang bail. It took some considrrable patience and pressure to straighten her back out. But it can be done without buckling.
Could have been an accident?
Could have just been racing?
I dont know.

 

[shemandr]

If racing, a usable outhaul is really helpful on downwind legs.

Downwind we used to set the main to full extension on downwind legs. It was what is called the full barn door mode. How does @Lightnsail use the outhaul on downwind legs?