Zspar / Beneteau / Catalina halyard issue

[kaptaindave]

I have a client with a mast with Z spar / US spar inmast furling mast (as commonly used on Catalina, Caliber and Beneteua) on his '05 Beneteau 423. The client hired me to change out the existing spare halyard to one the same diameter... only longer. All I did was tie a proper messenger onto the old halyard, pull it through, take the old halyard to West Marine to get one the same diameter only longer, then tie the new halyard on the messenger and then pull the new halyard through. The problem is that now there is a significant amount of binding when you pull either the spare halyard or spin halyard -- both on the starboard side.

After some research, I've discovered that the mast has the 1" PVC / plastic conduit running up the startboard forward verticle of the extrusion and horizontal compression bars that run across the mast diameter. The bars are reported to be atleast 2.5" (fore and aft) and definitely run across the forward side of the compression bars since I can see through a small hole near the spreaders. In fact since the spin halyard is sitting right up against the conduit, my gut is telling me that the spare halyard is forcing the spin halyard into the conduit.

A little more background: 1) I know the rigger that put the original halyard in and he swears that he just pulled the new spare halyard through using the factory messenger line. 2) The spar builder has little to say aside from the standard "Sounds like you might have to pull that halyard through again." 3) Yes, it's the same diameter line as the old spare halyard. 4) When pulling the new spare halyard back through, I experience some binding at two points as I pull which feed my theroy that there just isn't enough space for both halyard to fit through and still turn easily, 5) running the halyards down the aft side of the compression car won't be of any help either because the halyards would then have to make a significant turn the exit the mast... sure o chafe. 6) The local dealer has never heard of the probelm but the guy who does all the Beneteau commissioning has... one other boat had this same problem and the owner just learned to live with it.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance. -- D

 

[DougM]

It seems strange that if you used a messenger line to pull the halyard through, that the new one would not have followed the same path as it was pulled back. I have pulled my halyards out every fall and put them back in the spring and have not encountered this. Is it possible that the line jumped out of the sheave at the top, and is running alongside it?

I know that there is conduit inside the mast, one usually runs to the location of the steaming light and the other runs to the masthead. If there were any aftermarket electronics installed, and the wires missed the conduit thay may have gotten twisted around the halyard during the original installation. Its also possible that the spinnaker halyard and main halyard or jib halyard are twisted around each other.

Everything is further complicated by the in-mast furling hardware.

One possible way to sort out the problem would be to go up the mast and drop the halyard through from the top with a piece of sash chain attached to the end. The chain can then be snagged with a magnet and pulled through the proper slot in the mast.

 

[rpwillia]

2 Things

Is is possible the line got a little twisted and at one point it is just a little thicker? Also, I do not know where Catalina gets their factory line, but I definitely like it better than what I have gotten from West Marina as replacement.

 

[Witzend]

Before you replaced the halyard, was the original one running free?

 

[Clark]

Another thought; lines swell a bit over time (3/8 swollen to 7/16, etc.). Could the new line be larger than what was originally installed?

 

[kaptaindave]

Wow... alot of responses. Doug your points with the sheave are valid as I have not check that but if that were the problem then 1) why would the spin halyard bind as well, 2) why would I feel two distinct areas of binding... which seem to coincide with the spreader compression bar locations?

To your other points, there are most definitely aftermarket electronics installed but if they were the issue then why was the previous one month old 7/16" New England Rope Sta-Set have been running free. It is possible that the halyard are wrapped inside the mast but again... there's the issue of two distinct problem areas near the bars. If there was a wrap, this wouldn't be the case. Also if I slack all the halyards, the problem still exists.

I like the magnet idea, but I would go stainless nuts, chain, messenger and then new halyard. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

The main issue with the inmast furler that pertains to this problem seems to be that there just isn't as much space in there as a traditional hollow extrusion and IMHO, the loss of the full oval cross section is offset (strengthwise) with wider spreader compression bars.

rpwillia - You may be onto something, I seem to remember the new halyard being a little curlie cued as it when in. Perhaps there's a pig tail in there as I have yet to take the line completely out again. For that, I can pull the halyard completely out leaving the messenger and then trying to pull it through again. And the last I heard, Catalina uses an Yale ULS.

Witzend - My understanding is that yes it was but I pulled it out so fast I didn't notice it being hard or easy running. Let's face it, pulling a new halyard is pretty easy stuff... especially if you tie a smooth knot, tape off the bitter end of the messenger with a thin wrap of tap and / or stitch the two halyard together (old and new) and then pull it through.

Clark - I pulled the 1 month old halyard out leaving a messenger line behind, went to West Marine to spec it out: 7/16" sta-set at 115' finished, cut / bought a piece that was 140', spliced the snap shackle on the end and a messenger loop on the bottom, when back to the boat, hooked it up, pulled it through and now there's a problem. Ofcourse the client is saying "it wasn't like that before" and all I'm saying is I just did exactly what I just mentioned. I held the two lines together in the store and 7/16th seemed like it was the one and despite New England making quality line

Let's assume that I'm right for a moment in that the conduit is in the starboard, forward of the mast @ 7 o'clock and that the spin halyard is at 8'clock and the spare halyard is at 7:45, then it would be obvious that the 7/16" spin halyard can't move to port (6 o'clock) because the 1" conduit is there. It the spin halyard is tight it won't want to 8 o'clock at all. If it's slacked, it won't want to move to 8'clock because the spare halyard is pushing at it at a 7:45 position as a guess, and the neither halyard can move to 9 o'clock when slacked because the two compression bars wouldn't let the halyard move back that far - a guess.

It seems the thing to do, is: 1) pull the whole halyard out to make sure it's not curlie cued, 2) then check the masthead for for fouling just to rule that out, 3) slack and remove the port lower forward shroud, 4) lower the shroud to the deck, 5) hook the spare halyard with a coat hanger and pull it agreesively to port (to see if I can temporarily ease it's pressure off the spare halyard on the spin halyard).

If don't all this makes it flow easier, I've eliminated all pressing problems. If it doesn't, it seems like I need to drop a messenger down and start again. No matter what, if I can "fix" the problem and I'm right about what's causing it, I can't think of anything I can do to prevent it from binding again in the future.

More thoughts?

Remember, it only gets to be it's worst where it passes the lower spreader which coincidently is where the halyard starts making it's final angle to exit the mast. This would also coincides with the most friction due to the angle as well as the line passing and rubbing its way through the exit plate

 

[Steve Dion]

Is there some chance that the line has a hockle in it?

Maybe you should re-attach the messenger and pull the line out. Stretch the line out on the dock and be sure that it is straight. Then just try it again. I would also remove the spin halyard and do the same.

 

[Clark]

Hmm; missed that part that the line that came out was only 1 month old. I like Steve's suggestion to remove and re-install the lines - may address rpwillia's thoughts as well.