Ok, I've had my new Catalina 22 out for the first time sailing (Finally!!). No major problems other than a learning curve (you have probably seen my other message thread). Anyway, I've got questions about the keel cable this time. My cable seems ok, but I don't know how old it is (boat is a used 1971 model - #880). I'm not sure when the cable was last replaced. I've read all the terrible stories in the forums about breaking cables, slamming keels, and shattered hulls. I'd like to change my cable this spring. So this leads to the question: I'm scuba certified and have all my own scuba gear. How hard would it be to swap the cable and connect it in the water while the keel is all the way down? Or...should I do the fancy trailer trick and lift the back end of the boat and replace the cable in my backyard? It seems the scuba thing would be easy, but there is the danger of dropping things that sink if I'm clumsy. Backyard replacement would solve that problem, but then there is the complexities of lifting the boat enough to get at the cable pin. Ideas? Tom the Catalina Newbie
Yeah, another newbie question - keel cable.
- Thread starter tegwilym
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Keel Cable Replacement
I would pull the boat. There is no need to lift the aft end of the boat. At least I didn't have to on mine. While it is out, I'd replace the entire volcano assembly tube. Especially replace the turning ball and pin. The volcano is below the waterline so replacing it on the hard is important. If you can't lower your keel enough to expose the fitting, then after replacing everything, back the boat into the water until the stern starts to float. As that happens, more of the keel will be exposed and you will be on a hard surface that should make finding the dropped part that much easier and shallower.
I would pull the boat. There is no need to lift the aft end of the boat. At least I didn't have to on mine. While it is out, I'd replace the entire volcano assembly tube. Especially replace the turning ball and pin. The volcano is below the waterline so replacing it on the hard is important. If you can't lower your keel enough to expose the fitting, then after replacing everything, back the boat into the water until the stern starts to float. As that happens, more of the keel will be exposed and you will be on a hard surface that should make finding the dropped part that much easier and shallower.
lifting
How do I reach the cable pin if I don't lift the back of the boat? Even with my keel cable slack on the trailer (and the keel in the cradle) I can't reach the pin since it's tucked into the hull. I think I would just need to lift the back end of the boat maybe a foot or so to lower the keel enough to reach the pin. Yeah, I've been thinking of changing the ball and volcano tube while I was at it.
How do I reach the cable pin if I don't lift the back of the boat? Even with my keel cable slack on the trailer (and the keel in the cradle) I can't reach the pin since it's tucked into the hull. I think I would just need to lift the back end of the boat maybe a foot or so to lower the keel enough to reach the pin. Yeah, I've been thinking of changing the ball and volcano tube while I was at it.
Replace the Tube
I replaced my cable while on the trailer without liftig the hull, but I suppose trailers are differant. Be very careful when you remove the tube. When I took mine off, it didn't want to come off! The brass pipe that is glassed into the bottom of the hull that holds the turning ball came out instead. Should this happen at sea you would sink really fast. I cleaned up the pipe and the hole and epoxied the pipe back in and then epoxied all around the joint between hull and pipe. replace the turning ball and install the new tube with two smooth clamps. Make sure that when you put the new cable thru the turning ball that it goes on the AFT side of the turning ball or it will eventually saw the tube in half. When done, order another cable to have on hand. Good Luck.
I replaced my cable while on the trailer without liftig the hull, but I suppose trailers are differant. Be very careful when you remove the tube. When I took mine off, it didn't want to come off! The brass pipe that is glassed into the bottom of the hull that holds the turning ball came out instead. Should this happen at sea you would sink really fast. I cleaned up the pipe and the hole and epoxied the pipe back in and then epoxied all around the joint between hull and pipe. replace the turning ball and install the new tube with two smooth clamps. Make sure that when you put the new cable thru the turning ball that it goes on the AFT side of the turning ball or it will eventually saw the tube in half. When done, order another cable to have on hand. Good Luck.
tube and cable
Yep. I did pull my rubber tube off when I just got the boat and was checking things out. It came off with no problem and everything looked fine. It only had one hose clamp on it though, so for extra safety I dug through my basement pile and found another one to put on there. I have 2 on there now, so I don't think my volcano should erupt!
At first when I was looking at the ball, it seemed odd that the cable went aft of the ball. It does look wrong when the keel is up, but when looking at where things sit when the keel is down it all makes perfect sense. I just need to find the easiest way to change out the cable, but then again I could just be making a big deal out of a fairly easy procedure. When would you guys replace the winch? Mine is pretty rusty, but works fine. There is a bunch of rust on the little metal screw plate that holds the cable on the pulley. I didn't touch it fearing that I would break off the screws and cause more trouble. Mine also has the smaller axel on it compared with the new ones with the larger cable rolling axel. I'm thinking of adding this to my growing list of stuff to upgrade/replace. - Cable - Motor mount - Winch - Ball - Volcano tube Money money money! Tom
Yep. I did pull my rubber tube off when I just got the boat and was checking things out. It came off with no problem and everything looked fine. It only had one hose clamp on it though, so for extra safety I dug through my basement pile and found another one to put on there. I have 2 on there now, so I don't think my volcano should erupt!
At first when I was looking at the ball, it seemed odd that the cable went aft of the ball. It does look wrong when the keel is up, but when looking at where things sit when the keel is down it all makes perfect sense. I just need to find the easiest way to change out the cable, but then again I could just be making a big deal out of a fairly easy procedure. When would you guys replace the winch? Mine is pretty rusty, but works fine. There is a bunch of rust on the little metal screw plate that holds the cable on the pulley. I didn't touch it fearing that I would break off the screws and cause more trouble. Mine also has the smaller axel on it compared with the new ones with the larger cable rolling axel. I'm thinking of adding this to my growing list of stuff to upgrade/replace. - Cable - Motor mount - Winch - Ball - Volcano tube Money money money! Tom
Keel and trailer
" How do I reach the cable pin if I don't lift the back of the boat? " You may have to lift the back of the boat BUT your boat shouldn't be sitting on the trailer with it's weight on the keel. And the keel shouldn't be hanging by the keel cable on the trailer. The bunks should be high enough so that you can drop the keel just a bit onto a keel roller. Even if this is an inch, you may be able to remove the cotter pint on the keel for the cable. When you remove the cable, check your cable for frayed meat hooks and check the groove in the turning ball (in the volcano) for uneven wear. Make sure that the turning ball rolls nicely before you put the hose back on.
" How do I reach the cable pin if I don't lift the back of the boat? " You may have to lift the back of the boat BUT your boat shouldn't be sitting on the trailer with it's weight on the keel. And the keel shouldn't be hanging by the keel cable on the trailer. The bunks should be high enough so that you can drop the keel just a bit onto a keel roller. Even if this is an inch, you may be able to remove the cotter pint on the keel for the cable. When you remove the cable, check your cable for frayed meat hooks and check the groove in the turning ball (in the volcano) for uneven wear. Make sure that the turning ball rolls nicely before you put the hose back on.
lifting
Oh yeah.....If the keel is slack and resting on the trailer cradle I would only have to lift the weight of the back end of the boat. I guess that shouldn't be too bad, but I'll still need something under to support it while I do the trailer tipping method.
Oh yeah.....If the keel is slack and resting on the trailer cradle I would only have to lift the weight of the back end of the boat. I guess that shouldn't be too bad, but I'll still need something under to support it while I do the trailer tipping method.
Slack keel
If the keel is slack and resting on the trailer cradle, you may not need to lift the stern to change the cable. The attachment point on the back of the keel could be reached from underneath. If not, people have used various means of support and you would only need to lift it a few inches. I made a makeshift cinder block wall to rework my keel. I would be cautious about that method because the blocks can crack or fall over in the mud but I used a lot of them. http://baggins.150m.com/Sailing/Sailing.html Follow link to the "on blocks" page Others use large oil drums or they make some other type of support. Whatever you choose make sure that it will work first. If you have the space, you are eventually going to need to do something in this or have a yard do the work. Here is a most unusual means: http://dumbo.torrisi.org/gallery/album04 but be aware that he did bend his bow u bolt a bit. http://www.c22region10.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=120 My point about not having the trailer setup so that the boat's weight is on the keel is that the slight shifting of the boat as you drive puts great strain on the keel and it may cause the keel bolts to fail. I hate to always be sounding like these problems are big issues but from what I've read on the internet, they have happened and it's better to know.
If the keel is slack and resting on the trailer cradle, you may not need to lift the stern to change the cable. The attachment point on the back of the keel could be reached from underneath. If not, people have used various means of support and you would only need to lift it a few inches. I made a makeshift cinder block wall to rework my keel. I would be cautious about that method because the blocks can crack or fall over in the mud but I used a lot of them. http://baggins.150m.com/Sailing/Sailing.html Follow link to the "on blocks" page Others use large oil drums or they make some other type of support. Whatever you choose make sure that it will work first. If you have the space, you are eventually going to need to do something in this or have a yard do the work. Here is a most unusual means: http://dumbo.torrisi.org/gallery/album04 but be aware that he did bend his bow u bolt a bit. http://www.c22region10.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=120 My point about not having the trailer setup so that the boat's weight is on the keel is that the slight shifting of the boat as you drive puts great strain on the keel and it may cause the keel bolts to fail. I hate to always be sounding like these problems are big issues but from what I've read on the internet, they have happened and it's better to know.
The stern is easy to lift. (Edited)
----Of course the following will only work if the pairs of bunks are the swivelling/self aligning type. When you jack up one bunk, the pair of bunks will swivel. One bunk will move up with the hull & the partner will move down.--- If your C22 is on a bunk style trailer, place a jack between the trailer frame & the underside of the back inside 2X4 wooden bunk. You can jack it up on alternate sides until you have enough height to reach the keel cable clevis. You probably will only need 2" or less in order to reach the clevis. Jacking on one side only might be enough for the required clearance. Depending on your jack height, you will need a few extra blocks. Use a longer block next to the bunk to spread the load as the 2X4 will bend a little bit & place the hull loading on a point. Regards from Canada.
----Of course the following will only work if the pairs of bunks are the swivelling/self aligning type. When you jack up one bunk, the pair of bunks will swivel. One bunk will move up with the hull & the partner will move down.--- If your C22 is on a bunk style trailer, place a jack between the trailer frame & the underside of the back inside 2X4 wooden bunk. You can jack it up on alternate sides until you have enough height to reach the keel cable clevis. You probably will only need 2" or less in order to reach the clevis. Jacking on one side only might be enough for the required clearance. Depending on your jack height, you will need a few extra blocks. Use a longer block next to the bunk to spread the load as the 2X4 will bend a little bit & place the hull loading on a point. Regards from Canada.
Lifting just a little bit...
I was looking at my boat today and thought I might be able to replace the cable without lifting the boat, but then looking at the size of the pin, I think it wouldn't slide enough to the side to drop out. So....I was thinking that if I just lift the boat a tiny 2 inches or so, I could clear the bottom of the hull, slide out the pin, and replace the cable quite easily. I was looking at the bunk supports (they are wood 2x6 treated lumber with a astro-turf kind of covering. Each of the bunks is supported at 3 points. I was wondering if I possible just removed the bolt on the back support and jacked up the bunk a bit on both sides to clear the keel. The wood should just flex a little bit (hopefully). But then again, I'm wondering if the thing would slip out and not line up the bolt again? I am missing a nut and bolt on my middle support on one side that I'll have to replace when the boat is in the water next time. That side would concern me that it would slip since it would pivot around the front support (just a theory). I would just need as little as 1 inch to lift and the cable pin can be yanked! Tom
I was looking at my boat today and thought I might be able to replace the cable without lifting the boat, but then looking at the size of the pin, I think it wouldn't slide enough to the side to drop out. So....I was thinking that if I just lift the boat a tiny 2 inches or so, I could clear the bottom of the hull, slide out the pin, and replace the cable quite easily. I was looking at the bunk supports (they are wood 2x6 treated lumber with a astro-turf kind of covering. Each of the bunks is supported at 3 points. I was wondering if I possible just removed the bolt on the back support and jacked up the bunk a bit on both sides to clear the keel. The wood should just flex a little bit (hopefully). But then again, I'm wondering if the thing would slip out and not line up the bolt again? I am missing a nut and bolt on my middle support on one side that I'll have to replace when the boat is in the water next time. That side would concern me that it would slip since it would pivot around the front support (just a theory). I would just need as little as 1 inch to lift and the cable pin can be yanked! Tom
Just lift one end
Hi Tom. I think that my trailer is similar to yours. http://baggins.150m.com/Sailing/Sailing.html please see my link to the Sea dog on blocks. You already know that you don't have to remove the trailer from underneath. You should just jack up the rear of the boat. and then the trailer tongue. I would only adjust the bunks after the boat is off the trailer. If you loosen a bunk, the supports may move and you'd need to readjust it if you don't have the boat sitting on your lap. IT's hard to tell how much weight is on a support with the boat on it. As for how much you need to lift the boat to change the cable, The 2" or less would be about correct. I would lower the tongue or jack up the back of the trailer and then put some substantial support at the very stern of the boat to brace it while you jack up the front of the trailer. For stern support, you don't want the boat to slip sideways or fore/back while it's raised. You also want the wheels blocked on the trailer so it doesn't move. Also, Be careful with the trailer tongue jack. Some aren't designed to go up all the way. The jack may break. How ever you do this, think it out well and do it safely. It may be a good idea to have another person around that knows something about this. Please excuse me for repeating with a better explanation for setting up the bunk height: ".........BUT your boat shouldn't be sitting on the trailer with it's weight on the keel anyway. (What I mean is that when you put the boat on the trailer, the keel should be winched up all the way. Then, after the boat is on the trailer and in the parking lot, yuo should be able to drop the keel a few inches so the keel shouldn't be hanging loose at the back by the keel cable while the boat is on the trailer. The bunks should be high enough so that you can drop the keel just a bit onto a keel roller. This relieves any possible strain on the keel while towing. Even if this difference is only an inch, you may be able to remove the cotter pint on the keel for the cable. When the boat isn't on the bunks, you can adjust the height unles you have a good means of support for the boat. When you remove the cable, check your cable for frayed meat hooks and check the groove in the turning ball (in the volcano) for uneven wear. Make sure that the turning ball rolls nicely before you put the volcano hose back on."
Hi Tom. I think that my trailer is similar to yours. http://baggins.150m.com/Sailing/Sailing.html please see my link to the Sea dog on blocks. You already know that you don't have to remove the trailer from underneath. You should just jack up the rear of the boat. and then the trailer tongue. I would only adjust the bunks after the boat is off the trailer. If you loosen a bunk, the supports may move and you'd need to readjust it if you don't have the boat sitting on your lap. IT's hard to tell how much weight is on a support with the boat on it. As for how much you need to lift the boat to change the cable, The 2" or less would be about correct. I would lower the tongue or jack up the back of the trailer and then put some substantial support at the very stern of the boat to brace it while you jack up the front of the trailer. For stern support, you don't want the boat to slip sideways or fore/back while it's raised. You also want the wheels blocked on the trailer so it doesn't move. Also, Be careful with the trailer tongue jack. Some aren't designed to go up all the way. The jack may break. How ever you do this, think it out well and do it safely. It may be a good idea to have another person around that knows something about this. Please excuse me for repeating with a better explanation for setting up the bunk height: ".........BUT your boat shouldn't be sitting on the trailer with it's weight on the keel anyway. (What I mean is that when you put the boat on the trailer, the keel should be winched up all the way. Then, after the boat is on the trailer and in the parking lot, yuo should be able to drop the keel a few inches so the keel shouldn't be hanging loose at the back by the keel cable while the boat is on the trailer. The bunks should be high enough so that you can drop the keel just a bit onto a keel roller. This relieves any possible strain on the keel while towing. Even if this difference is only an inch, you may be able to remove the cotter pint on the keel for the cable. When the boat isn't on the bunks, you can adjust the height unles you have a good means of support for the boat. When you remove the cable, check your cable for frayed meat hooks and check the groove in the turning ball (in the volcano) for uneven wear. Make sure that the turning ball rolls nicely before you put the volcano hose back on."
lift
Yep. After thinking about it a little, I thing disconnecting the back of the bunk would be a bad idea since there is then a couple more things that could slip out of alignment when I drop the boat back on it. I just need a tiny bit of lift, maybe even only 1/2 inch! To slide the pin out and replace the cable. It may bet challenge to get the cable run through, but I can always just take off the ball and drop the cable down the hole and pin it in place. Easy. I would like to replace the volcano tube, cable, and possibly the winch (pretty rusty, and it has the small axle). I know there are a few stray meat-hooks on the top end of the cable deep in the rolled up part. Nothing too severe, but I want to get that changed before I sail it too much just to be safe. The hard part is just 1 inch! Tom
Yep. After thinking about it a little, I thing disconnecting the back of the bunk would be a bad idea since there is then a couple more things that could slip out of alignment when I drop the boat back on it. I just need a tiny bit of lift, maybe even only 1/2 inch! To slide the pin out and replace the cable. It may bet challenge to get the cable run through, but I can always just take off the ball and drop the cable down the hole and pin it in place. Easy. I would like to replace the volcano tube, cable, and possibly the winch (pretty rusty, and it has the small axle). I know there are a few stray meat-hooks on the top end of the cable deep in the rolled up part. Nothing too severe, but I want to get that changed before I sail it too much just to be safe. The hard part is just 1 inch!
Tom
drum
Get yourself one or two 55 gal drums,(I paid 5.00 apiece for mine) one would do what you want. I use two to remove the boat completely. Let the front of the trailer down as far as you need to to get the drum under the back edge of the transom place a board on the drum and maybe a piece of foam (I use a boogie board) As you raise the front of the trailer the rear of the boat will come off the trailer. As you say you only need an inch or so. Nothing to it.
Get yourself one or two 55 gal drums,(I paid 5.00 apiece for mine) one would do what you want. I use two to remove the boat completely. Let the front of the trailer down as far as you need to to get the drum under the back edge of the transom place a board on the drum and maybe a piece of foam (I use a boogie board) As you raise the front of the trailer the rear of the boat will come off the trailer. As you say you only need an inch or so. Nothing to it.
Turning ball
Tom, In the top of the volcano is a bronze ball. If it isn't turning, it can cause those mea hooks in the top of the cable. If it has a flat spot on the side, it should be replaced as well as the cable. They get all silted up. To replace the ball wrap a string around the groove and use that to insert into the volcano. Otherwise you'll be climbing in and out of the boat a few times tring to get the pin back in.
Tom, In the top of the volcano is a bronze ball. If it isn't turning, it can cause those mea hooks in the top of the cable. If it has a flat spot on the side, it should be replaced as well as the cable. They get all silted up. To replace the ball wrap a string around the groove and use that to insert into the volcano. Otherwise you'll be climbing in and out of the boat a few times tring to get the pin back in.
Parts
Well, I had worries about my truck which were just in my head, so I didn't have to blow a bunch of money on that, and the shop did tell me that I had a transmission cooler in it already. Boy, do I feel like a dork! Plus, if I do my taxes right, I'll get $800+ back from the IRS - that is BOAT MONEY!!! I'll be ordering a new winch, cable, volcano tube and ball shortly. The Seattle weather keeps crapping on me every weekend, so I'm sure I'll have a rainy saturday to work on it without guilt of not being out on the water. *sigh* Tom
Well, I had worries about my truck which were just in my head, so I didn't have to blow a bunch of money on that, and the shop did tell me that I had a transmission cooler in it already. Boy, do I feel like a dork! Plus, if I do my taxes right, I'll get $800+ back from the IRS - that is BOAT MONEY!!! I'll be ordering a new winch, cable, volcano tube and ball shortly. The Seattle weather keeps crapping on me every weekend, so I'm sure I'll have a rainy saturday to work on it without guilt of not being out on the water. *sigh* Tom
Parts ordered!
Probably put a curse on the spring weather which hasn't shown up here yet in Seattle, but I put in an order for a full keel lifting overhaul. New winch, volcano tube, ball, and of course - the cable. When the stuff arrives, I'll just need to figure out 1 inch of lifting on the back end of the boat. I guess I'll have to find/borrow one of those 55 gallon drums to hold the back end. We'll see... Tom
Probably put a curse on the spring weather which hasn't shown up here yet in Seattle, but I put in an order for a full keel lifting overhaul. New winch, volcano tube, ball, and of course - the cable. When the stuff arrives, I'll just need to figure out 1 inch of lifting on the back end of the boat. I guess I'll have to find/borrow one of those 55 gallon drums to hold the back end. We'll see... Tom
Your dreading something that's going to shock you to just how easy it is to change.
Your going to look back and laugh about this real soon. I would also (if you haven't) get two new SS clamps for the hose, most of the clamps weren't good quality that CY installed.
Volcano
I think that when the Volcano tube comes, it has two hose clamps of very good quality that do not pinch the rubber tube. As said, These things aren't difficult once the boat is safely lifted. WIth the ball, wrap a small line around it to insert it. Otherwise youl drop it on the ground, have to climb down off the boat, try again, drop it again etc.... I know because this is how I did it..Good exercise for the legs. I'm curious about one thing Tom, Why a new winch? Later, read up on the keel hangers and bolts. Some recommend replacing them as a safety precaution from time to time. They come with Loc-tite. If you trailer sail, it would probably not be a big concern unless your boat's weight rests on the keel while on the trailer. As far as I'm concerned, peace of mind on the keel issues is a good thing.
I think that when the Volcano tube comes, it has two hose clamps of very good quality that do not pinch the rubber tube. As said, These things aren't difficult once the boat is safely lifted. WIth the ball, wrap a small line around it to insert it. Otherwise youl drop it on the ground, have to climb down off the boat, try again, drop it again etc.... I know because this is how I did it..Good exercise for the legs. I'm curious about one thing Tom, Why a new winch? Later, read up on the keel hangers and bolts. Some recommend replacing them as a safety precaution from time to time. They come with Loc-tite. If you trailer sail, it would probably not be a big concern unless your boat's weight rests on the keel while on the trailer. As far as I'm concerned, peace of mind on the keel issues is a good thing.
winch and other parts
I've been reading about the ball trick and know that I should use a string rather than repeated droppings. I like learning from others mistakes! I know that I'm making a big deal out of a simple thing, but I'm still new and paranoid about this. Heh! I know I probably didn't need a new winch just yet, but mine is pretty rusty and the screw-on "clamp" thing that holds the end of the cable on the winch is very rusty so I'm afraid it will break or I'll have trouble getting it back on when I undo it. Also, my winch is the small axle type. The new ones have a much larger radius for winding the cable so I figure that would probably be better for the cable so it wouldn't have to be crunched in the middle so tightly. As for the keel hanger, I want to wait a couple seasons before I do that. I'll eventually want to re-finish the keel, but it seems to be in pretty good shape. I anded the rusty spots off, filled a few gaps with epoxy putty, sanded it smooth, then put some de-rusto type paint on it. Probably not totally correct, but I keep it in my backyard, not on the water. I also have some rust along the trailing edge of the keel that I can't reach until it's dropped. I just don't want to do that just yet, that looks like a major pain, dangerous, and no fun. My trailer just supports the keel in a cradle no boat weight is on the keel, it just hangs from the hanger on the front. I keep the cable firm but not loose so the weight is on the trailer rather than cable. Tom
I've been reading about the ball trick and know that I should use a string rather than repeated droppings. I like learning from others mistakes!
I know that I'm making a big deal out of a simple thing, but I'm still new and paranoid about this. Heh! I know I probably didn't need a new winch just yet, but mine is pretty rusty and the screw-on "clamp" thing that holds the end of the cable on the winch is very rusty so I'm afraid it will break or I'll have trouble getting it back on when I undo it. Also, my winch is the small axle type. The new ones have a much larger radius for winding the cable so I figure that would probably be better for the cable so it wouldn't have to be crunched in the middle so tightly. As for the keel hanger, I want to wait a couple seasons before I do that. I'll eventually want to re-finish the keel, but it seems to be in pretty good shape. I anded the rusty spots off, filled a few gaps with epoxy putty, sanded it smooth, then put some de-rusto type paint on it. Probably not totally correct, but I keep it in my backyard, not on the water. I also have some rust along the trailing edge of the keel that I can't reach until it's dropped. I just don't want to do that just yet, that looks like a major pain, dangerous, and no fun. My trailer just supports the keel in a cradle no boat weight is on the keel, it just hangs from the hanger on the front. I keep the cable firm but not loose so the weight is on the trailer rather than cable. Tom- Status