Washington State bans copper bottom paint

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Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I know, just injecting a little humor into this debate...tough crowd.
Forrest....... I thought it was funny, too. I just couldn't think of a funny response without possibly offending some people.... you're right about the tough crowd though. It's starting to sound like a debate between the Darwinians and the Creationists.
 

Faris

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Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
Then why are cigarettes still being sold...

We KNOW for a fact it is bad for you...per your information...they should be ...
No. We don't know that. We know that there is a high statistical correlation between cigarette smoking and certain diseases. Causation cannot be proven.

And, I am not for or against banning of anything. Well, I am, but I have not expressed any of those opinions here. What I am saying is that I try not to use products which have a high probability of harming the environment, and I can't understand why others would.

I don't care much whether cigarettes are legal. But, I don't use them and it seems asinine that others would choose to do so (notwithstanding people who would like to quit but have been unable). But, there is a big difference between cigarette smoking and copper leeching. I don't much care if a person chooses to smoke so long as I don't have to breath it. The marine environment is not so neatly self-contained. Your choice to leech copper contaminates the environment we all share.

For this reason, the cigarette analogy does not hold up, and the case for banning copper-leeching substances is strengthened. It's like this: If you want to pee your pants, go right ahead, but if you want to pee in the pool, we have a problem.
 

KD3PC

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Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
We Don't KNOW that cigs are bad for you?!?!?! And the costs to taxpayers to ..

Uncle!
I give!

You can swap cigarette and copper in your explanation and...Oh never mind...
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,139
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
This is really frustrating. I won't add to my prior comments except to jump in and summarize as follows:

1. I don't care what kind of bottom paint I use if it will match or exceed my current paint experience. The man-up and deal with it comments have not changed what I consider to be a reasonable expectation from my elected and appointed officials.

2. Current tests on non-copper paint products give 1/2 to 2/3 life compared to copper (less to my personal history) and most require prepping which usually entails stripping.

3. The cost to me personally to swap given experience to date on non-copper paint is about $2500 up-front cost and $160+ / month ongoing.

4. I don't have a big problem with the up-front cost but I have a big problem with the ongoing expense.

5. All the rest is trust, credibility, bias and experience.

A. I believe there is an institutional bias vs. the recreational boater;
B. I am suspicious of the sampling validity based upon observation.
C. I question the 'legislate and industry will find a solution' approach because of experience with early generation paints and varnishes, gas cans, vehicle emission equipment, fuel formulation, etc. In short, I don't like being a crash-test dummy for products which are made based on a mandate by people who's only objective is the end game while ignoring the process. I recognize other people strongly believe that is an acceptable approach to an objective.
D. I recognize we live in a congested setting and that our habits have an effect on the quality of life for others and for future generations and that some sacrifice and adjustment is needed in our activities. I do believe in a temperate and thoughtful approach to do so.
6. Finally, I recognize I have choices. I can choose to sell my boat, move it out of the country, move myself or simply deal with it. I will consider all those options as this progresses.
 

Faris

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Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
1. I don't care what kind of bottom paint I use if it will match or exceed my current paint experience.
Really? Paint experience is your only criterion? Nothing else matters except that your paint works well at a price you consider reasonable?
2. Current tests on non-copper paint products give 1/2 to 2/3 life compared to copper (less to my personal history) and most require prepping which usually entails stripping.
I just don't believe this is true. Some citation would be nice. Also, I don't know about "most", but there are only a few products out there. The only one I've tried will allow you to paint right over copper or anything really.
3. The cost to me personally to swap given experience to date on non-copper paint is about $2500 up-front cost and $160+ / month ongoing.
Based on what? Those numbers seem unbelievably high. That would suggest that you were currently budgeting well about $2000 per year for antifouling paint. What up-front costs are involved? Unless you are thinking that you have to strip (which you don't).
A. I believe there is an institutional bias vs. the recreational boater;
So what if there is? At the end of the day, it has nothing to do with the fact that copper-based paints leech copper into the water. Is this regulation unfair, and ultimately less effective for it? Of course it is. But that doesn't negate the fact that it is still a good idea. A small step perhaps, but a positive one. My car is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to massive corporate polluters, yet this doesn't give me the moral right to ignore emissions standards. Limiting harmful emissions, even by my little car, is still a good idea.
B. I am suspicious of the sampling validity based upon observation.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that you are suspicious of sampling based on observation, or, based on your past observations, you are suspicious of the validity of the sampling?
C. I question the 'legislate and industry will find a solution'
Yeah, I think this is a valid concern. Businesses are in it to make money. We can't rely on them to necessarily come up with great solutions right away because that is not their primary goal. Their primary goal is to turn a profit. Ideally, if capitalism is working, these goals will be closely tied, but we know that there is frequently a disconnect. However, if we can't trust industry to come up with good solutions, and we can't trust boaters to make responsible choices on their own (as you just stated at the top of your post), then how do we tend to matters that are in the public interest without legislation?

That is, when businesses won't do what's right and consumers won't do what's right, what's left?

It's illegal to buy and sell children in this country. Why? Not because there aren't people who would buy them if there were available, and it's not because there aren't people who would sell them if they could. As a society, we've made a commitment to protect children by making this illegal. If it was legal, you better believe there would be a market.

So, why is it controversial when we want to pass legislation to protect other things in this way in the name of public interest?

Consider crack. This is illegal. We made this illegal for the sake of public interest, and we didn't even care if the industry came up with a legal alternative. As a society, we don't consider recreational drugs an unalienable right. Perhaps recreational boating falls into the same category somewhat. That is, you don't have to go boating. Our society doesn't rely on it in any way. So, why should the average non-boater (the vast majority) care if it costs you a few dollars more?

Conversely, why should you ask the average person to tolerate you leeching copper into their water so that you can save a few bucks with your hobby?

It's OK that we disagree on this, but can you at least see what I am saying?
D. I recognize we live in a congested setting and that our habits have an effect on the quality of life for others and for future generations and that some sacrifice and adjustment is needed in our activities. I do believe in a temperate and thoughtful approach to do so.
I think we can agree on this. And, we can probably agree that the legislation as it stands is probably far from ideal. My position is just that this doesn't make it wrong. It just means that we can do better.
 
Jan 22, 2008
423
Catalina 30 Mandeville, La.
I have been following this thread and there was something familiar to me that I just couldn't place. Then it came to me...inconceivable!
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
This whole thing is a conspiracy by the Bilderberg Group to increase control over the population of the entire planet. Say goodbye to freedom and hello to the new world order.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,894
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Dunno, Jibes..?? I'll have to consult my barnacle free, slightly copper colored gator on that one !!
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
OK I guess this thread is all settled and RichH's side wins again. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Rich and just ignore those taking a counter position to our own. I'm sure they will eventually come around to a reasonable and responsible approach to environmental improvement.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
From today's 'Lectronic Latitiude

Washington Bans Copper Bottom Paint

May 11, 2011 – Olympia, WA
On May 4, Washington governor Chris Gregoire sounded the death knell for copper-based bottom paint in her state by signing into law a ban on the use of the product on recreational boats under 65 feet — the first state to do so. The law prohibits the sale of new boats with copper paint after January 1, 2018, and no paint with more than a half a percent of copper can be used starting in 2020.
California is close on our northern neighbor's heels with Senate Bill 623, which would put into place a similar ban. On May 2, the Senate Committee on Environmental Quality approved the ban and sent it to the Senate Appropriations Committee for further consideration. If made into law, the legislation would ban the sale of new boats with copper paint as of January 1, 2015, and ban the paint outright starting in 2019.

We've had three different Econea-based test paints on the bottom of our boat over the last few years, and all have performed as well as or better than the 67% copper control paint.
Photo Latitude / LaDonna
© 2011 Latitude 38 Publishing Co., Inc.


For what it's worth, paint companies have made huge strides in developing alternatives to copper — we've been very satisfied with the Econea-based test paints that have been on our boat's bottom for the last few years — but Boat U.S. has expressed concern that, since the ban applies only to rec boats and not commercial or military vessels, it "may not provide a large enough market to stimulate research and development on alternative coatings."
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,139
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
One Other Thing....

The legislation itself prohibits paint with any biocide, not just copper. That was a big surprise to me and really limits options.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
I received this information from the Recreational Boaters of California:
I'd like to know how the RBOC figures that switching to non-copper paints will cost boaters an average of $5000 every other year. Sounds to me like they pulled that number out of their asses. There are other self-serving inaccuracies in the RBOC letter as well. I will be attending a SB 623 stakeholders meeting at the Capitol Builiding in Sacramento next week and will be sure to press the RBOC representative on these points.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
The legislation itself prohibits paint with any biocide, not just copper. That was a big surprise to me and really limits options.
Not true. Where are you getting that from?

This bill would prohibit, on and after January 1, 2015, a
manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer, or distributor from selling or offering
for sale in California a new recreational vessel, as defined, containing
antifouling paint that contains copper. The bill also would prohibit, on
and after January 1, 2019, the use or application of antifouling paint
that contains copper on recreational vessels, except as provided.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
How about some experiments? My guess is that loud Rap music will prevent barnacles and other such things from adhering to your boat. This will need to be played 24 hours a day of course. I have also heard of such things as ultrasonic vibes or electric charge as possible repellants.
Who wants to sign up for the Rap music experiment??
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,139
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Not true. Where are you getting that from?

Good catch! :redface: You are correct. The definition applies to the legislative intent language, not the specific prohibition. It finds that the legislative intent is to promote the use of alternative paints, and then goes on to define those as nonbiocide:

756. For purposes of this article, the following definitions shall
apply:
(a) “Alternative paint” means paint that does not contain any
biocide compounds. Alternative paint acts to protect the integrity
of a vessel’s hull by creating a hard barrier or by creating a slick
finish to aid in foul-release properties

Sorry about that; I did too quick a read.
 

Gary_H

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Nov 5, 2007
469
Cal 2-25 Carolina Beach NC
Well I know for sure that rap music repels me when stopped at an intersection so it should do the same for barnacles. Personally, I think just saving up all your Teflon cookware and screwing them to your hull will work. Or maybe just spraying the bottom with Pam.
 

Faris

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Apr 20, 2011
232
Catalina 27 San Juan Islands
This might be a different thread, but seemed relevant to this one. I was watching a Nova series the other day. They featured a company that is making items textured with a special pattern inspired by shark skin (which naturally prevents bacteria and other "visitors"). This is a solution that does not rely on chemistry at all - the texture alone is responsible for the effect. Here's an article from the manufacturer: http://www.sharklet.com/technology/

Makes me wonder if something like this could be made into a viable solution for boats. Undoubtedly the application would be more expensive, but since it doesn't rely on chemistry, you could use the longest lasting material available. As long as the texture was intact, it should continue to be effective. I have no idea if it could be viable, but it would be interesting. It works for sharks.
 
Feb 26, 2011
1,428
Achilles SD-130 Alameda, CA
Faris said:
This might be a different thread, but seemed relevant to this one. I was watching a Nova series the other day. They featured a company that is making items textured with a special pattern inspired by shark skin (which naturally prevents bacteria and other "visitors"). This is a solution that does not rely on chemistry at all - the texture alone is responsible for the effect. Here's an article from the manufacturer: http://www.sharklet.com/technology/

Makes me wonder if something like this could be made into a viable solution for boats. Undoubtedly the application would be more expensive, but since it doesn't rely on chemistry, you could use the longest lasting material available. As long as the texture was intact, it should continue to be effective. I have no idea if it could be viable, but it would be interesting. It works for sharks.
The Navy is looking into this. Even if it is found to work, you have to wonder how it could be applied to pleasure craft at a reasonable cost.
 
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