Trailer Build

[LeeandRick]

I'm building a new trailer for the S2 8.0C and plan to trailer the boat 2 degrees bow down to gain clearance at the rudder for a better departure angle. This equates to the bow being 1 foot lower than the stern. The cockpit drain scuppers are in the forward end of the cockpit so this angle actually improves rainwater drainage. The bow stop will be overbuilt so it should stop the boat from sliding downhill on the trailer. The farthest aft hull support will still clear on a 5 degree ramp angle or greater. I'm using my pivoting keel support / bow stop design and will be able to adjust the angle after the trailer is finished.

Do any of you trailering or engineering folks know of something I might be missing with this 2 degree down idea?

 

[rickff]

My concerns are with safety going down the road.
is the tongue weight over 15%? what is your tow vehicle?
does it have the capacity plus a safety margin? When trailering,
its not about being able to tow it, its about being able to stop it.

 

[LeeandRick]

My concerns are with safety going down the road.
is the tongue weight over 15%? what is your tow vehicle?
does it have the capacity plus a safety margin? When trailering,
its not about being able to tow it, its about being able to stop it.

Way ahead of you on the safety. Trailer registered GVWR of 9990#, trailer frame designed for >16000# GVWR, tandem axles 5200# for 10400# total, with 10 ply tires @ 2840# each (11360# if you could perfectly balance the load ). Trailer weight <2000#, boat weight with 1000# of gear in it 6200# Total on the road weight of 8200#.
Electric over hydraulic disc brakes on all wheels is the best I can do for stopping (wished they made an anti-lock version) Empty tongue weight 17% +/- Loaded tongue weight 12% We always use a WDH on the road.
The tow vehicle is a 2014 Ram 3500 DRW setup for 32000# CGVWR (weight is de-rated from 36000# due to axle ratio). We pull the boat with our truck camper loaded most of the time which puts us near the truck GVWR of 14000# including the tongue weight of the trailer. The WDH "really" helps in this situation.

You did miss an important safety issue when towing and that is fitness and experience of the driver. I'm 64 and know my driving ability has diminished over the years and always drive with that in mind. I let the right seat (Lee) take care of all the distracting task, like programming the GPS talking/texting on the phone, etc.
Experience, I've been towing trailers continuously since I was 15 with no crashes (no such thing as an accident). Just jinked myself. My dad put me behind the wheel, at 15 with learners permit, towing our pop-up for the longest narrowest 2 lane bridge in Florida, dumb idea dad . I just came off of a 12 year stint of full-time RVing, towing a 21000# fifth wheel with a class 8 tractor. So I think I'm good to go until age catches up with me. My biggest issue is all the damn people talking and texting and "thinking they are driving".

 

[Meriachee]

We went past the bow stop position question and concentrated on a keel stop, since the rotation of the boat compared to the trailer happens at the lowest forward edge of the keel. This places the pivot much lower and diminishes, significantly, concerns like ramp angles from the equation. The bow stop is still used to crank in the boat, but left loose enough that the boat won't move as it comes out of the water.
There are some pictures here:
https://meriachee.wordpress.com/2014/05/31/trailer-modifications/

 

[LeeandRick]

We went past the bow stop position question and concentrated on a keel stop, since the rotation of the boat compared to the trailer happens at the lowest forward edge of the keel. This places the pivot much lower and diminishes, significantly, concerns like ramp angles from the equation. The bow stop is still used to crank in the boat, but left loose enough that the boat won't move as it comes out of the water.
There are some pictures here:
https://meriachee.wordpress.com/2014/05/31/trailer-modifications/

The exact reason I'm using my pivoting keel rest / bow stop design. Plus the forward pads rotate down with the design. I can go up to a 16 degree ramp angle before it stops pivoting. The keel guides also pivots up to be in the same position relative to the keel at all ramp angles.

 

[Meriachee]

Exactly. This makes it so much easier.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Ok but a couple of things here folks. Are you trailering the boat with the mast secured on top. Then measure the highest point of any load vertically down to the bottom of ground and see if it is under 13' 6" for legal height. then ask yourself if you will be going into places with low limbs, overhangs and so on and will it clear. So often many fail to think of this.

Tandem axle. You need to balance the load with a safety margin of 10% of the weight of boat, trailer, motor and gear on the hitch which is a standard item in the industry but anymore, you must understand that the forward axle will carry more weight adding weight to the forward axle tires thus wearing them out faster when moving a winch stand closer toward the hitch.. Let the sooth sayers say otherwise but this comes from experience of towing over 1 but closer to 2 million miles or darn close to it as a dealer over the years.

All this will depend of course on total weight, boat and so on as everything is different but the above came from two well versed sailboat trailer designers. Food for thought.

 

[Meriachee]

Same scenario with three axles, although it's a lot better balanced. Front axle is quite loaded compared to the back.

 

[LeeandRick]

Tandem axle. You need to balance the load with a safety margin of 10% of the weight of boat, trailer, motor and gear on the hitch which is a standard item in the industry but anymore, you must understand that the forward axle will carry more weight adding weight to the forward axle tires thus wearing them out faster when moving a winch stand closer toward the hitch..

Having had 3 trailers weighed with individual scales on each wheel, 2 tandem axle and 1 triple axle, and watch many more get weighed your theory doesn't hold water. If hitch height is adjusted properly you can get both axles equal. Side to side is another matter where internal things have to be moved or changed. If you don't believe me have these guys weigh you.
https://www.escapees.com/knowledge/smartweigh If I raise the tongue enough on a tandem axle trailer I can get the rear axle to carry all the weight. The problem is many people pull with too light a vehicle causing squat and loading the front axle. Get a WDH if your vehicle can't handle the tongue load. I don't want to be confrontational but I don't like false ideas either.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Do any of you trailering or engineering folks know of something I might be missing with this 2 degree down idea?

In your original post, you quoted the above. The specs of the trailer as to GVW to include tires gross carrying load with a 10% margin is good. Vehicle very well adapted to the trailer to pull, experience of towing is good and you have several trailers weighed on each tire. Good information. However you are being confrontational and calling me out when you said false ideas came from me

I was a dealer who represented the major lines to include smaller lines over the years with nearly two million miles of towing experience with my fleet of trucks and trailers to include single, tandem, triaxle some with leaf springs and others with torsion bars and even a hydraulic trailer which I hauled up to 36 feet not going over a total of 25,500 pounds total weight of truck, trailer, boat and gear as going over 26,000 pounds would have put me into another class to include a lot higher fees. I then had the larger rigs to haul for me. In the beginning I too made some mistakes that occurred in front tires blowing out, axle fires and so on which then lead me to gain an education from the two top sailboat designers most notably Ron Frisosky now deceased. From that I designed trailers for me personally and for manufacturers. I could go on but you will understand I do have knowledge and experience with trailers. I also owned portable scales which configuring a boat for transport were put under all tires. In fact I was involved with designs of sailboats and major innovations which helps me to pass on knowledge and then your comment which needed to be addressed.
In the original post, no mention of weight of boat, motor or gear as I am not familiar with that boat and the depth of the keel . No mention of the length or width of trailer other than weights of trailer and carrying load of the tires nor placement of axles/stands/winch stand. No mention of straight hitch, drop hitch or inverted hitch, overhang, how many stands, how the mast would be loaded onto trailer/boat and so on. I could only go on what was mentioned thus far and you invited us for comments only to be chastised.

Each load on my trailers for transport included proper hitch for a level trailer, that I had a 10% but no more than 15% carrying capacity on the hitch for safety to prevent swaying particularly on the single axles. The boat or axels in some cases had to be moved but in every case that I put my individual scales under the tires, the front axle tires were generally carrying more weight keeping in mind for safety. It is easy to design a trailer to a specific boat but much harder to configure a boat to a generic trailer bought from a manufacturer.
I could go on sir but in the future may I suggest that instead of the approach you did, ask questions because others would chime in and the main purpose for this forum is to help each other instead of pointing fingers.
I am only here on this forum giving up my time to help others to include you as God was good to me in my business and felt being led to help folks here. In the future I will refrain answering your posts for information. Now for three hours today calling folks, emailing and doing some research and when I respond it is always in laymans terms so not to confuse many with my suggestions and help. So far this spring, I am lined up to travel in five cases out of state to help others only asking for out of pocket expenses only.

Dave Condon

 

[Meriachee]

On my latest trailer, with three axles, and a loaded weight of around 11,000 lbs, the tongue weight is a little light at about 850, and the front axle of the three is much more loaded than the rear.

 

[Meriachee]

and it has way more marker lights than this picture shows. That's important you know.

 

[LeeandRick]

Sorry Dave, I did not mean to call you out, piss you off or whatever. My bad

I've read many post by you and have always concurred with what you say. I should have clipped the quote a little more to only reflect the axle weights. Since you have a lot more miles towing than I have, I knew your observations on tire wear had to be correct. After writing the post yesterday I started thinking about why the forward tires would wear more. My theory, even if the trailer axles were perfectly balanced when the load was static on a scale, the bounce of the tow vehicle would load the front axle more often as one travels down the highway causing the tire wear you referred too. Maybe we should all tow tongue high. In my defense what is the percentage of boat trailers going down the road somewhat level? I'm guessing most are nose low leading me to make my comment.

Sometimes I forget that an internet conversation does not show certain inflections that a person to person conversation would show. I attempt to use these forums to get a dialog going and determine the reasons of why or how something occurs or the better way to do something. Come by sometime, I'll buy you a beer, and we will talk face to face and figure out how to fix the worlds problems.

Oh yea, back to my original question, does anyone have thoughts on a boat on a trailer 2 degrees bow low.

 

[Meriachee]

Level. Design the loading for the boat level, and deal with the variables by moving the stuff forward and aft in the boat. Once you get into a class 5 category, 2 degrees isn't even on the radar anymore. The sore back from carrying the receiver out to the truck is the issue.

 

[LeeandRick]

and it has way more marker lights than this picture shows. That's important you know.

With LEDs you can put as many as you want but if you get too many someone might mistake you for a UFO and start shooting. Oh wait your in Canada.

 

[Meriachee]

Thankfully, by the look of things lately. Life would be much better if people learned other skills like wiring leds. Or baking cakes, or as Ellen says, being kind to one another.

 

[Meriachee]

Allow me to edit that last picture.

 

[LeeandRick]

Allow me to edit that last picture.
View attachment 147117

Nice lights. someone can't say they didn't see your trailer if they change lanes after you pass. I really like the individual fenders over each tire. May I steal that idea?

 

[Meriachee]

Nice lights. someone can't say they didn't see your trailer if they change lanes after you pass. I really like the individual fenders over each tire. May I steal that idea?

For some reason people like to gawk at this rig going down the road.
Please feel free to steal the idea, but with the condition that you post pics. Sharing is good.

 

[mm2347]

Multi-axles will wear tires unevenly for a number of reasons, some of which are variable. A constant in uneven tire wear is that the front axle will follow a different radius in a turn than the axels behind them. This will drag the tire slightly sideways scuffing them. This is one of the reasons that heavy equipment trailers will use duel tires on a duel axle trailer rather than go with a 3rd axel single tire to increase load capacity.