(1) My 146 is moored to a buoy. On two occasions, when there were storm-related winds, the boat has turned on its side. Any suggestions for preventing this from happening? (2) Other than reefing or not going out at all, is there any way to make the boat less tender in moderate and erratic winds?
topsy turvey
- Thread starter marion14961
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Tender Boats
Marion, I sail a New Hunter 170 which has a weighted center board. I don't know if your 146 does or if it is available for the 146 but that would be one of the first things to try. Another thing that many of us who sail the 170 here in So. California have done is added a boom kicker. The boom kicker helps to lift the boom without having to let out the mainsheet. This puts some twist in the upper part of the mainsail. This releases wind from the top of the sail and thus creating less healing pressre. Works great on the 170. Go to www.sailin-obsession.com for informtaion on a boom kicker. Brian
Marion, I sail a New Hunter 170 which has a weighted center board. I don't know if your 146 does or if it is available for the 146 but that would be one of the first things to try. Another thing that many of us who sail the 170 here in So. California have done is added a boom kicker. The boom kicker helps to lift the boom without having to let out the mainsheet. This puts some twist in the upper part of the mainsail. This releases wind from the top of the sail and thus creating less healing pressre. Works great on the 170. Go to www.sailin-obsession.com for informtaion on a boom kicker. Brian
On a Buoy
The 146 and 170 will sail on it's self in high winds. To stop it from turning over, rise the centerboard when it is moored. This will let it slide and not let any force on the centerboard to turn it over.
The 146 and 170 will sail on it's self in high winds. To stop it from turning over, rise the centerboard when it is moored. This will let it slide and not let any force on the centerboard to turn it over.
Boomkicker on 170
I installed a kicker on my 170 this spring, but our "great" Northern Illinois weather has kept me from sailing since the installation and I am sure some fine tuning of the intallation will be needed. When you have the vang and the mainsheet released and the boomkicker is supporting the boom, how far above flat horizontal does your boom rest?
I installed a kicker on my 170 this spring, but our "great" Northern Illinois weather has kept me from sailing since the installation and I am sure some fine tuning of the intallation will be needed. When you have the vang and the mainsheet released and the boomkicker is supporting the boom, how far above flat horizontal does your boom rest?
Let's Think This Through
Marion and all involved, Is it the wind or the waves that knock a daysailer over when the boat is moored and the sails down? I had my 170 tip out a boat lift in a strong storm last summer, but the boat was perpendicular to the wind and the sides of the hull acted like a big sail and the boat rolled out. You can read about that adventure in the archives. This was definitely wind related. I also had my boat almost go over when I was working on it one day while it was in the water, up against the pier, sail down, mast up. A ski boat, pulling a wake boarder went by. He had his onboard water bags filled to the max and the wake was easily 24-30 inches high. This also hit the boat broadside and man did it roll. Probably would have also went over if I was not there at her side. This was wave related only. Now, if a boat is moored to a bouy, and I am assuming that it is only moored at the bow so it will weather vane, what is actually knocking it over... wind or waves? My guess would be waves? What do you all think? I really do not have a suggstion at this time, but what do you all think? Marion, is it only tied at the bow to a single bouy vs front and back to two? I look forward to the response. Rusty
Marion and all involved, Is it the wind or the waves that knock a daysailer over when the boat is moored and the sails down? I had my 170 tip out a boat lift in a strong storm last summer, but the boat was perpendicular to the wind and the sides of the hull acted like a big sail and the boat rolled out. You can read about that adventure in the archives. This was definitely wind related. I also had my boat almost go over when I was working on it one day while it was in the water, up against the pier, sail down, mast up. A ski boat, pulling a wake boarder went by. He had his onboard water bags filled to the max and the wake was easily 24-30 inches high. This also hit the boat broadside and man did it roll. Probably would have also went over if I was not there at her side. This was wave related only. Now, if a boat is moored to a bouy, and I am assuming that it is only moored at the bow so it will weather vane, what is actually knocking it over... wind or waves? My guess would be waves? What do you all think? I really do not have a suggstion at this time, but what do you all think? Marion, is it only tied at the bow to a single bouy vs front and back to two? I look forward to the response. Rusty
Wind Velocity !
What wind cinditions are we talking about here, 15-25, 50-60 ...........All references to the 170 being blown over have been related to storm conditons, which I would think would be 40 + conditions. Those of you that had this happened to their 170 would have a better Idea of what wind velocities were being reported by your local weather stations. The 170 is a very clean design. At 480 lbs she does not sit very low in the water, which means there is a lot of surface area that is exposed to the wind conditions. If you look at the design of the 170 you can see how the HULL design would have the similar "LIFTING EFFECTS" that of an airplane wing. If the 170 was moored and allowed to pivet into the wind, the wind hitting the bow would split going around each side of the boat hull, now look at the hull as it gets further back to the widest point, it begains to flatten out as it tappers back. This is very similar to the air foil of a wing, (look at your center board for example, its has the same air foil shape) The wind in this case would have a lifting effect on the hull. I'm sure most of us have seen some one driving down the road with a mattres or sheet of plywood on top of a car and trying to hold it down with one hand ! its just a matter of how much wind going across that surface before it breaks free from whats holding it down, in the 170 case, its only resting on the surface of the water. With the bow tied, its much like a kite on a string. It would be interesting to do an actual study (video) of a 170 in a "storm" condition to verify these results(how about a wind tunnel test). Now, as for a wave, I don't know ? Doe's the "POSEIDONE ADVENTURE" come to mind ? Happy sailing
What wind cinditions are we talking about here, 15-25, 50-60 ...........All references to the 170 being blown over have been related to storm conditons, which I would think would be 40 + conditions. Those of you that had this happened to their 170 would have a better Idea of what wind velocities were being reported by your local weather stations. The 170 is a very clean design. At 480 lbs she does not sit very low in the water, which means there is a lot of surface area that is exposed to the wind conditions. If you look at the design of the 170 you can see how the HULL design would have the similar "LIFTING EFFECTS" that of an airplane wing. If the 170 was moored and allowed to pivet into the wind, the wind hitting the bow would split going around each side of the boat hull, now look at the hull as it gets further back to the widest point, it begains to flatten out as it tappers back. This is very similar to the air foil of a wing, (look at your center board for example, its has the same air foil shape) The wind in this case would have a lifting effect on the hull. I'm sure most of us have seen some one driving down the road with a mattres or sheet of plywood on top of a car and trying to hold it down with one hand ! its just a matter of how much wind going across that surface before it breaks free from whats holding it down, in the 170 case, its only resting on the surface of the water. With the bow tied, its much like a kite on a string. It would be interesting to do an actual study (video) of a 170 in a "storm" condition to verify these results(how about a wind tunnel test). Now, as for a wave, I don't know ? Doe's the "POSEIDONE ADVENTURE" come to mind ? Happy sailing
Wind Velocity
Glenn, The velocity of the wind that pushed my 170 over and out of the lift was in the 35 to 40 MPH range, no more. I was not present at the lake that day, but I did experience the same storm about 15 miles from the lake. These were the gusts, not sustained winds. A normal mid summers storm. I also was at the lake one day when a minor squall came through and watched the 170 go over to about 45 or so degrees (also in the lift). Since that time, she is strapped down when the lift is raised. The boat sits in the aluminum lift on the equivalent of 2, 2x6s (wood planks mounted over aluminum cross members). The rear cross member has a cradle mounted to it to support the hull, while the front is just the crossmember. The cradle supports the port and starboard sides of the hull while the boat sits on the both crossmembers. I THINK the depth of the hull really cacthes the air and coupling this with the lines of the bottom of the hull make for a pretty slippery package. Add on to this a little lift and away she goes. I would almost bet that if this boat was sitting in a strong crosswind, in its trailer, not secured down, it would roll out of the trailer. Opinion only. Needless to say, I know strap the hull down in the lift.. Rusty
Glenn, The velocity of the wind that pushed my 170 over and out of the lift was in the 35 to 40 MPH range, no more. I was not present at the lake that day, but I did experience the same storm about 15 miles from the lake. These were the gusts, not sustained winds. A normal mid summers storm. I also was at the lake one day when a minor squall came through and watched the 170 go over to about 45 or so degrees (also in the lift). Since that time, she is strapped down when the lift is raised. The boat sits in the aluminum lift on the equivalent of 2, 2x6s (wood planks mounted over aluminum cross members). The rear cross member has a cradle mounted to it to support the hull, while the front is just the crossmember. The cradle supports the port and starboard sides of the hull while the boat sits on the both crossmembers. I THINK the depth of the hull really cacthes the air and coupling this with the lines of the bottom of the hull make for a pretty slippery package. Add on to this a little lift and away she goes. I would almost bet that if this boat was sitting in a strong crosswind, in its trailer, not secured down, it would roll out of the trailer. Opinion only. Needless to say, I know strap the hull down in the lift.. Rusty
interesting point of view
Hi Rusty, The cradle sounds nice.......It appears this is a good way to have your boat at the waters edge ready to go but its not sitting in the water itself, very nice, no trailer to deal with. We had one of our H.D.A.S.C. members have his boat "FLY" off the trailer. while preparing to launch, his sails were up as he was backing the boat down the ramp..........off she went ! My boat and trailer always seemed pretty light towing, may be the wind effect from being tow lifts the boat and trailer causing less drag..........You don't really believe that do you !......lol Glenn Glenn
Hi Rusty, The cradle sounds nice.......It appears this is a good way to have your boat at the waters edge ready to go but its not sitting in the water itself, very nice, no trailer to deal with. We had one of our H.D.A.S.C. members have his boat "FLY" off the trailer. while preparing to launch, his sails were up as he was backing the boat down the ramp..........off she went ! My boat and trailer always seemed pretty light towing, may be the wind effect from being tow lifts the boat and trailer causing less drag..........You don't really believe that do you !......lol Glenn Glenn
170 in Lift
I really like the concept of not having to move and rig the boat every time we head to our cabin, yet keeping it out of the water. I have attached an image taken one evening last summer. Kinda dark, but it WAS kinda dark. 80 degress this weekend in Wisconsin (it snowed Monday)!!! Rusty
I really like the concept of not having to move and rig the boat every time we head to our cabin, yet keeping it out of the water. I have attached an image taken one evening last summer. Kinda dark, but it WAS kinda dark. 80 degress this weekend in Wisconsin (it snowed Monday)!!! Rusty
Snow !
Nice picture, sure looks like thats a great idea to keep the boat ready and out of the water, less maintenace trying to keep the hull clean of a water line. How big is that lake ?..........I live a mile from Castaic Lake (40 miles north of Los Angeles)its the largest man madelake in southern Calif. its just to busy on the week ends and they charge almost $20.00 for the day to launch and park your car........... I like sailing in the ocean, I'm never out in any serious weather, my be 25 max, seas might get about 2 feet with white caps, I head back in side the break water and to the marina where I can still sail with out the choppy water. My season started last Sunday out of ventura, nice day . Hope the weather breaks for you soon.
Nice picture, sure looks like thats a great idea to keep the boat ready and out of the water, less maintenace trying to keep the hull clean of a water line. How big is that lake ?..........I live a mile from Castaic Lake (40 miles north of Los Angeles)its the largest man madelake in southern Calif. its just to busy on the week ends and they charge almost $20.00 for the day to launch and park your car........... I like sailing in the ocean, I'm never out in any serious weather, my be 25 max, seas might get about 2 feet with white caps, I head back in side the break water and to the marina where I can still sail with out the choppy water. My season started last Sunday out of ventura, nice day . Hope the weather breaks for you soon.
Lake size
This lake is about 1000 acres, about 30 feet deep. Crystal clear water. Not a real big lake. What is nice about this lake is NO WAKE prior to 10 AM and after 3 PM. We have a lot of nice sailing inland lakes in the area that we travel to that are quite a bit larger. The Madison area has wonderful inland lake sailing. Have not been over to Lake Michigan or Superior. Look forward to doing that soon. Did you hear about the two kids, 14 years old I think, that spent 6 days lost at sea on a SUNFISH out east? WOW. First they were very lucky to be found alive...somewhat unlucky I guess to be swept out to sea. That whole ocean thing has to be a rush. Time to put the piers in tomorrow. Should have the boats in next week. Still rather cold but summer is on the way. Rusty
This lake is about 1000 acres, about 30 feet deep. Crystal clear water. Not a real big lake. What is nice about this lake is NO WAKE prior to 10 AM and after 3 PM. We have a lot of nice sailing inland lakes in the area that we travel to that are quite a bit larger. The Madison area has wonderful inland lake sailing. Have not been over to Lake Michigan or Superior. Look forward to doing that soon. Did you hear about the two kids, 14 years old I think, that spent 6 days lost at sea on a SUNFISH out east? WOW. First they were very lucky to be found alive...somewhat unlucky I guess to be swept out to sea. That whole ocean thing has to be a rush. Time to put the piers in tomorrow. Should have the boats in next week. Still rather cold but summer is on the way. Rusty
WI lakes
You do have some nice lakes in WI, Rusty. My youngest transferred from Purdue to UW and I'd love to drag my 170 over there to sail on the lake that edges the campus in Madison...too far though. The two kids you mentioned were on a 14 foot JY boat. Amazing that they were found alive.
You do have some nice lakes in WI, Rusty. My youngest transferred from Purdue to UW and I'd love to drag my 170 over there to sail on the lake that edges the campus in Madison...too far though. The two kids you mentioned were on a 14 foot JY boat. Amazing that they were found alive.
Purdue to UW?
We don't consider a change from Purdue to UW a transfer. We call that an upgrade!!!!! My wife's family has several ties with Purdue. My family's ties are with UW. It get's to be a touchy topic. Lake Mendota is a fantastic venue. It is only about 25 minutes south of us. Great sailing lake, just never put in there. Have your son check out the UW's Sailing club. I have attached the link. The Hoofer's are very active in many outdoor sports. Rusty
We don't consider a change from Purdue to UW a transfer. We call that an upgrade!!!!! My wife's family has several ties with Purdue. My family's ties are with UW. It get's to be a touchy topic. Lake Mendota is a fantastic venue. It is only about 25 minutes south of us. Great sailing lake, just never put in there. Have your son check out the UW's Sailing club. I have attached the link. The Hoofer's are very active in many outdoor sports. Rusty
UW
Well, as a matter of fact, he does consider it to be an upgrade...both in his academic major and in how much more there is to do in Madison compared to West Lafayette. He misses his Purdue friends but otherwise seems very happy with the decision. I believe that he is looking into sailing on Lake Mendota (his dorm is right on the lake...in fact, it is visable in the Lake Mendota Cam on the Hoofers link you attached....thanks!). Last summer, we sat on the terrace out behind the student union on a warm summer night while the masts of the sailboats bobbed against the sunset. One of the lovliest campus spots I've ever been on.
Well, as a matter of fact, he does consider it to be an upgrade...both in his academic major and in how much more there is to do in Madison compared to West Lafayette. He misses his Purdue friends but otherwise seems very happy with the decision. I believe that he is looking into sailing on Lake Mendota (his dorm is right on the lake...in fact, it is visable in the Lake Mendota Cam on the Hoofers link you attached....thanks!). Last summer, we sat on the terrace out behind the student union on a warm summer night while the masts of the sailboats bobbed against the sunset. One of the lovliest campus spots I've ever been on.
Thank you
I loved the UW during my time there. Would recommend it to anybody for some of the same reasons you said. As I said, we live very close, which did not factor into my decision 20 years ago. There is just so much to do... We could wake up and within 30 minutes be duck hunting north of Lake Mendota. Back and cleaned up for 9:55 AM classes. You want to sail, boat, kayak, fish, hunt, you name the activity, you can do it very close to the campus. If it is water related, you don't leave the campus. I recommend it to anybody who will listen. A little liberal but I guess that I can live with that. Just laugh it off!!!! Hoofers is cheap for what they have... Rusty
I loved the UW during my time there. Would recommend it to anybody for some of the same reasons you said. As I said, we live very close, which did not factor into my decision 20 years ago. There is just so much to do... We could wake up and within 30 minutes be duck hunting north of Lake Mendota. Back and cleaned up for 9:55 AM classes. You want to sail, boat, kayak, fish, hunt, you name the activity, you can do it very close to the campus. If it is water related, you don't leave the campus. I recommend it to anybody who will listen. A little liberal but I guess that I can live with that. Just laugh it off!!!! Hoofers is cheap for what they have... Rusty
topsy turvey (more information)
When moored to the buoy, the sails are down and the center board up. As with the 170, the boat does sit high on the water. It is tied to the buoy from the bow only to allow the boat to slide with the wind and tide, and under usual conditions there is no problem with the boat flipping on its side. (The boat is moored on a large salt water pond and can get white caps in storms or high winds.) Now, I am wondering now whether or not the boat gets caught on the line that extends from the buoy to the dock that allows me to pull the boat to the shore. Would this make sense? If it does, how else could I get the boat to the shore without getting wet? Someone suggested tying the line from the buoy to a point down the bow closer to the water. What would I attach that could hold with the pressure that is exerted and how do I affix it? As far as the idea of a weighted centerboard, that sure makes sense to me. I don't believe that this is available but will check with the local dealer. Is it possible that a weighted centerboard from another boat could be used? I am not sure how high above the horizontal the boom rests and won't be able to measure it as the boat is currently not rigged.
When moored to the buoy, the sails are down and the center board up. As with the 170, the boat does sit high on the water. It is tied to the buoy from the bow only to allow the boat to slide with the wind and tide, and under usual conditions there is no problem with the boat flipping on its side. (The boat is moored on a large salt water pond and can get white caps in storms or high winds.) Now, I am wondering now whether or not the boat gets caught on the line that extends from the buoy to the dock that allows me to pull the boat to the shore. Would this make sense? If it does, how else could I get the boat to the shore without getting wet? Someone suggested tying the line from the buoy to a point down the bow closer to the water. What would I attach that could hold with the pressure that is exerted and how do I affix it? As far as the idea of a weighted centerboard, that sure makes sense to me. I don't believe that this is available but will check with the local dealer. Is it possible that a weighted centerboard from another boat could be used? I am not sure how high above the horizontal the boom rests and won't be able to measure it as the boat is currently not rigged.
Weighted center board
Yes Hunter does make a weighted center board for the 170,( I weighed it againdt the orignal center board, I think the difference was about 18 lbs, I forget, one of the problems of getting old) I don't know about a 146, is it possible that they use the same center boards As for having a line tied to the bouy to retive your boat, that sounds pretty good to me unles you can walk on water !...With the center board "up", the boat should just pivit around freely. Remember,they don't sit deep in the water so there is a lot of boat dynamics of the hull that the wind will have a lifting effect on. Glenn
Yes Hunter does make a weighted center board for the 170,( I weighed it againdt the orignal center board, I think the difference was about 18 lbs, I forget, one of the problems of getting old) I don't know about a 146, is it possible that they use the same center boards As for having a line tied to the bouy to retive your boat, that sounds pretty good to me unles you can walk on water !...With the center board "up", the boat should just pivit around freely. Remember,they don't sit deep in the water so there is a lot of boat dynamics of the hull that the wind will have a lifting effect on. Glenn
centerboard
I believe that the new style centerboard on the 170 is actually a good bit heavier than the original....I'm thinking 60 lbs or so. Not sure about that but when I bought my boat a few years back, it was the first year of the heavier centerboard being included as stock equipment. I'm pretty sure that the centerboards on the 146 are diffent than the 170....if you look at the specs, the 170 board hangs about 50% lower when fully extended than does the board on the 146.
I believe that the new style centerboard on the 170 is actually a good bit heavier than the original....I'm thinking 60 lbs or so. Not sure about that but when I bought my boat a few years back, it was the first year of the heavier centerboard being included as stock equipment. I'm pretty sure that the centerboards on the 146 are diffent than the 170....if you look at the specs, the 170 board hangs about 50% lower when fully extended than does the board on the 146.
H-170 Centerboard Weight
Well, Glenn and I were together when I weighed the difference of the old centerboard and one of the newer ones. The difference was 16 lbs. heavier on the newer board. Later, I weighed another newer board and found the the weight was only 14 lbs. heavier than the older board. Also, in both cases, I found that on both newer centerboards, the added weight was in the top third portion of the board. My conclusion was, that I cannot find a compelling reason to change centerboards from the old to the newer boards just for the sake of stability. But, back to Marion's dilemma. One solution would be to raise the centerboard and rudder to reduce lift and to attach fenders to just below the chain plate for stability. Danny
Well, Glenn and I were together when I weighed the difference of the old centerboard and one of the newer ones. The difference was 16 lbs. heavier on the newer board. Later, I weighed another newer board and found the the weight was only 14 lbs. heavier than the older board. Also, in both cases, I found that on both newer centerboards, the added weight was in the top third portion of the board. My conclusion was, that I cannot find a compelling reason to change centerboards from the old to the newer boards just for the sake of stability. But, back to Marion's dilemma. One solution would be to raise the centerboard and rudder to reduce lift and to attach fenders to just below the chain plate for stability. Danny
Boats and wind
Hey folks! New 170 owner here....just drove to Ocean City Maryland to get it. I am Stoked!
I grew up sailing...since I was 6...wow that's 30 years now....sigh..... The issue with the boat on a moring sounds exactly like she got hung on the shore retriever. In that case she would stay broadside to the wind and subject to a knockdown. Don't ever under-estimate the power of wind upon a bare rig. When weathering a storm halfway to Bermuda in 1991 I was under bare sticks and still made 123 nautical miles by the time the storm ended. Also any sailboat, regardless of size, is unstable without the lateral forces applied by the sails and countered by the center board. The boat that got tumbled out of the cradle was more than likely rolled by the sheer leverage on the rig created by wind resistance. Sailboats are most stable when the pressure exerted ont he sails is equal to the lateral resistance on the CB. In my JY15 that was at about a 30 degree heel. Also the righting moment of the 170 is such that it is impossible to lay her on her side from a 24-30" wake. While she will roll like a sum-beach it is not nearly enough to cause a capsize. Again the mast and rig act like an inverted pendulum and accentuate the roll. I'l try to dig up one solution we used in Mystic, CT for keeping boats from getting caught on the retriever lines and post here. regards, Richard in MD
Hey folks! New 170 owner here....just drove to Ocean City Maryland to get it. I am Stoked!
I grew up sailing...since I was 6...wow that's 30 years now....sigh..... The issue with the boat on a moring sounds exactly like she got hung on the shore retriever. In that case she would stay broadside to the wind and subject to a knockdown. Don't ever under-estimate the power of wind upon a bare rig. When weathering a storm halfway to Bermuda in 1991 I was under bare sticks and still made 123 nautical miles by the time the storm ended. Also any sailboat, regardless of size, is unstable without the lateral forces applied by the sails and countered by the center board. The boat that got tumbled out of the cradle was more than likely rolled by the sheer leverage on the rig created by wind resistance. Sailboats are most stable when the pressure exerted ont he sails is equal to the lateral resistance on the CB. In my JY15 that was at about a 30 degree heel. Also the righting moment of the 170 is such that it is impossible to lay her on her side from a 24-30" wake. While she will roll like a sum-beach it is not nearly enough to cause a capsize. Again the mast and rig act like an inverted pendulum and accentuate the roll. I'l try to dig up one solution we used in Mystic, CT for keeping boats from getting caught on the retriever lines and post here. regards, Richard in MD- Status