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Too much headsail twist

Discussion in 'Sail Trim with Don Guillette' started by Davidasailor26, May 18, 2015. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,105 posts, 172 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    I've been having a hard time getting the luff of the headsail on our Oceanis 37 to break evenly. Close hauled in 8 kt winds I can get it balanced but I have to keep the fairleads one or two holes forward of what's recommended in the Neil Pryde trim guide for the boat. The bigger problem is that as I bear off to reach, it becomes pretty much impossible to keep the top third of the sail from luffing, even if the bottom is stalling. This is true even if I move the fairlead well forward of bisecting the clew angle. Attached is a picture of the sail on a reach (wind 60 degrees apparent, 90 degrees true, 7-8 kts true). When the picture was taken the upper telltales were reading luff and the bottom were reading stall. Also attached is a picture of the sheeting angle at the time. Am I missing something about how i should be trimming around this? This is the second season with the boat and the sail has been like this since new.


    image-3390348379.jpg



    image-4036106165.jpg
     


  2. Don Guillette

    Don Guillette

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,892 posts, 58 likes
    Other Catalina 30
    US Tucson, AZ
    David: The guide is just that -- it get's you into the ball park. Every boat is a little different and you might have to go a little farther forward or a little farther back than the guide suggests.

    It looks like you have a pin type fairlead system. They are a pain to adjust under load. My suggestion is you look into the Garhauer adjustable system. When I bought my system (which was the first mod I made) I couldn't believe why I waited so long to get that system. Very small adjustment are easy to make. The adjustment you need might be between the existing pin holes on the track.
     


  3. Stu Jackson

    Stu Jackson

    Joined Feb 26, 2004
    19,808 posts, 503 likes
    Catalina 34
    US Maple Bay, BC, Canada
    Don's right.

    But also recognize that on a beam reach the same "telltale information" will NOT work, the head of your jib WILL luff and the bottom WILL stall, even if you can move the fairlead position. Next time out, try it manually and you'll see.

    The reason is that a jib that works for going upwind is relatively flat. Only a completely fully bodied deep cut jib would even begin to provide equal telltales on a beam reach. That jib would be useless going upwind.

    Think about it.

    Also, your point is Too LITTLE Twist at the foot of the sail. Yeah, too much in the top? :)
     


  4. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,369 posts, 492 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    I don't think you can expect the tell tales to break evenly on a reach unless the jib clew is poled out. And even then I wouldn't expect it. Close hauled - yes. And then even a completely even break is fleeting.
    On a reach the jib is over trimmed on the foot by virtue of the fact that the clew needs to be set outside of the rail - sometimes by a lot. Almost by definition you can't have the top and bottom both correctly trimmed.
    You can become over focused by tell tales. It would be worth your time to read Buddy Melges book, I think, Sailing Smart. He is a proponent of using angle of heel to steer rather than strict adherence to tell tales.
     


  5. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,656 posts, 2,029 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    You need outhaulers, or reaching sheets.

    A tall non-overlapping jib like yours needs a lot of attention re shape. When slightly off the wind, the clew has to be moved outboard to give the luff the correct profile.

    Here's a reach with the sheet in its track and held inboard. Nasty.

    [​IMG]

    Moving the clew outboard gives a MUCH better shape. You can do this by running a separate sheet from the chainplates, or pull them out via outhaulers attached to the chainplates.

    [​IMG]
     


  6. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,105 posts, 172 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    Thanks for the input everyone. Just to be clear, in the pic I had attached I had already moved the car well forward from the close hauled position. Don - I agree it's a pain moving the pin-set cars, but I'm making that compromise for now because we dock bow in so I want to minimize the lines in the area we often walk across the deck. Our old boat was a masthead rig with 150% headsail, and that one I could balance on any point of sail by adjusting the car position. With this fractional, non overlapping jib I haven't been able to match that, although Stu and shemandr have me thinking this is the norm more than the exception. I like Jackdaw's suggestion of an outhauler, but I'm not sure how I would rig that. Because the headsail is only a 105%, the chainplates are well aft of where I would expect to need to sheet to, although maybe because they're more out outboard I might be able to get away with that? I guess I have something to experiment with.
     


  7. RichH

    RichH

    Joined Feb 14, 2005
    4,775 posts, 12 likes
    Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS
    US Worton Creek, MD
    David. Short LP jibs can be a problem when controlled by fair leads that are quite close to the boats centerline - all the problems you describe.
    Before you tear anymore hair out, do this .... Make two imaginary lines from your forestay, one at 10 degrees away from the centerline and running to the fair lead block and another at 12 degrees. Then on a near windless day, pull real tight on the jib sheet ..... And see and report back if the clew is 'over' & 'between' these two imaginary lines. :)
     


  8. Joe

    Joe

    Joined Jun 1, 2004
    6,384 posts, 300 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Mission Bay, San Diego
    I raced on a boat that had aluminum slotted toe rails. On a reach the trimmer had a snatch block clipped to the toe rail that allowed him to transfer the sheet outboard the stanchions... Tying on a second sheet allows you to move under load.. in and out.. or with an second car on the same track.. fore and aft.

    On my Nacra 5.2 there is an barber hauler that pulls the jib clew outboard.. necessary of all downwind work.
     


  9. Parsons

    Parsons

    Joined Jul 12, 2011
    519 posts, 151 likes
    Catalina 36
    US Bay City, MI
    Jackdaw is right on that you need to feed the sheet more outboard of the current position, and Joe is right with the practical approach of adding a barberhauler to force the sheet outboard. A couple of snap shackles for rigging this could be in your investment plan (but boy are they pricey!). A cheap approach for this season, and to try out placement, may be to simply run a second sheet outboard of the lifelines to a block attached to a mooring cleat or your spinnaker sheet winch aft. This will add several feet of outboard angle with your current equipment. It's a pain to trim sometimes and I wouldn't try to race with it.
     


  10. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,105 posts, 172 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    Thanks again for the suggestions to sheet more outboard. I crewed on a boat that had a setup like Joe describes for reaching. I'll be at the boat on Thursday and will try whatever I can find to attach a block closer to the rail. Will report back with my findings.
     


  11. Mechman

    Mechman

    Joined Jan 30, 2014
    7 posts, 0 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37
    US Auckland
    David.. I also have a Beneteau Oceanis 37 and share your problem. I also sheet a couple of holes farther forward than the recommendations to prevent the top twisting off. I have been thinking rigging a barber hauler to pull the sheeting angle out and give better control.

    But what I think the boat really needs is a code 0.
     


  12. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,656 posts, 2,029 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    NOW we're talking!

    A solution to forereach in decent breeze is still needed, but in lighter airs any Beni (or other brand for that matter) really benefits from upwind spinnaker. We would have had exactly 1/2 the boat speed if we had our jib out.

    [​IMG]
     


  13. Todd Smith

    Todd Smith

    Joined Dec 4, 2008
    264 posts, 0 likes
    Other people's boats -
    US Milford, CT
    At some point ( beam to broad reach), a whisker pole on the leeward side can really help.

    Todd Smith
     


  14. Scott T-Bird

    Scott T-Bird

    Joined Oct 26, 2008
    3,306 posts, 425 likes
    Starwind 27
    US Barnegat, NJ
    Which brings up a question for me ... Where do I set the fairlead when poled out with a whisker pole? My fairlead is on a rail-mounted track. Will the fairlead be further aft than I would normally have it positioned for a broad reach or about the same? I assume I will still be watching the telltales for the normal indicators.

    I'm anxious to try out our new pole (purchased from SBO), but sadly, our boat is STILL NOT in the water. We are anxiously waiting for water levels to rise. It has been VERY frustrating. The State DEP regulates water levels on Lake Hopatcong and they only know how to F things up!
     


  15. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,105 posts, 172 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    Update - I was able to go out this evening during our weekly club race and experiment a bit with a more outboard sheet. I ran a spare sheet through the mid-ship mooring cleat and back. The leech shape definitely looked much better; not as cupped inward as running to the regular fairlead when the apparent wind was behind 40 degrees or so. Unfortunately the wind was only about 2-4 kts and flakey, so I wasn't able to get a good idea of the luff balance, but the couple times that there was enough breeze to stream the telltales it seemed like it was no worse balanced than with the fairleads forward, even though the cleat is further aft. The chainplates are at the rail just in front of the cleat so I suspect they may be the best place to sheet to on a reach without having a pole. I'm going to try to rig a block to them for the next time out and see how that goes. Thanks again to all for the advice!
     


  16. RichH

    RichH

    Joined Feb 14, 2005
    4,775 posts, 12 likes
    Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS
    US Worton Creek, MD


  17. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    224 posts, 34 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    So, for club white sail racing we have 3 legs with one up-wind then two downwind reaches on opposite tacks back to the start line. We are now really very competitive up wind but the winning boat seems to gain quite a bit on the down wind legs. I believe a reaching sheet would help since our 115 Genoa is sheeted tight to the cabin top and leads to the shapes noted above. My first thought was to buy a lighter set of jib sheets in addition to the standard ones but run through a block on the slotted toerail somewhere aft of the shrouds. We would pre-run these sheets and hook them via shackle to the clew just before the windward mark. allowing a better sheet angle and an easy gybe when needed.
    Do you folks think an out-hauler would be easier? This would be for racing or a long long reach only as day-sailing would just be done with the current set-up.
     


  18. LeslieTroyer

    LeslieTroyer

    Joined May 20, 2016
    1,518 posts, 472 likes
    Catalina 36 MK1
    US Everett, WA
    Isn’t a barberhauler designed to reduce twist in headsails??
     


  19. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,369 posts, 492 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    Yes I think outboard sheeting will help.
    Either scenario would probably work. As would what we call a short sheet, which is a shorter line then a sheet, with a turning block shackled to the rail and a hook or shackle for the clew. It isn't used to tack or jibe the boat - that's the short part. You turn the boat with the regular sheets and then hook on the short sheet and ease the regular sheet. It usually goes to a cabin top winch. Pretty good for close reaching. As you get towards beam reach or deeper I like a pole.
     


  20. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,105 posts, 172 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    I did end up getting blocks and attaching them to the chainplates. Big improvement by doing that. We just run the sheets and attach with a bowline at the start of reaches. A shackle scares me a little in case foredeck crew gets hit with it, but if you're careful it's certainly easier than tying a knot.
     



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