Sea toilet on the 22... Is it worth the expense?

[greg_m]

Hi All fellow 22 owners

I am in the process of a major refit of my boat and am at the stage where I am contemplating through hulls and the topic of a flushing sea toilet has popped up.

Personally I hate the porta-potti idea... did some RV stuff on safari here in SA and it was always an unpleasant task to empty the tank. Not a hassle or difficult... just not appealing!

I'm all for the "poop deck" scenario however my wife would not agree and there's always a happy snapper that would catch my posterior hanging over the stern as it were and post the graphic evidence on FB!

So my question is: Is a flushing sea toilet worth the cost, installation hassle and cutting big holes in the boats bottom where there are none now?

Thoughts... comments anyone?

 

[Gene Neill]

@CaptDon01 is the only person I know who ever installed one on a C22, but I haven't seen him around here for a while. A small number of C22's actually came with one.

One possible (easier, I would think) alternative would be a Thetford 550P MSD, which is basically just a large portapotty but is fully plumbed in and can be pumped out just like a "proper" head. I'm replacing the head on our Albin Vega with one of these, thereby eliminating the holding tank to free up some space, and adding five gallons of fresh water to the meager 18 gallons the boat holds. Our resident expert, @Peggie Hall HeadMistress, has spoken favorably of this method on small boats.

 

[Leeward Rail]

That's why they put the swimming ladder in the stern.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I'm not up to speed on South Africa's marine sanitation laws...What if any are the restrictions on flushing toilets directly overboard there? If there are none, then a simple compact manual marine toilet is all he needs and should be easy to install. But if he can't legally flush directly overboard, a self contained toilet/tank fitted for pumpout--an "MSD" version portapotty--is the only way to go on a 22' boat.

However, on a 22' boat I'd go with the Dometic/SeaLand Sanipottie 975 instead of the Thetford because it holds the same number of flushes--50-60--but has a smaller footprint....every square inch counts on a boat that small! If the 975 is too tall to fit under a seat cushion, the shorter 962 MSD holds 20-30 flushes, has the same size footprint and will fit under a seat cushion.

While I doubt that it makes economic sense to order from the US to be shipped to SA, the information the detailed information MSD portapotties on the sbo.com store site is worth reading: SaniPottie MSD

 

[Benny17441]

I'm not up to speed on South Africa's marine sanitation laws...What if any are the restrictions on flushing toilets directly overboard there?

Not so much about the laws and restrictions but the real question is; to what degree are they enforced? Seems to me that greg m mentions a direct sea flushing toilet as a perfectly viable alternative. I agree that if a holding tank had to be added the best solution would be a porta poti.

 

[rpludwig]

portapottie when needed for the Admiral, urinal bottle over the side for the guys, + what Gene sez for the other.....there's barely enough headroom above in a pre-86 C22 for comfortable sit-down use of any porta or marine toilet IMO if you're taller than 5'6", unless u want to put it in the dinette area, and we don't .... were we eat!! (learned that concept from my dog!)

 

[Jackdaw]

In British marine parlance, a 'sea toilet' is a toilet that drains straight (and only) to the sea.

 

[Jackdaw]

But, from the bow pulpit, you can yell "I'm the king of the world!!" while taking a deuce. Beat THAT!

I pray to god daily that I never see you doing this.

Really.

 

[greg_m]

On South African pollution prevention laws... MARPOL Annex IV is not enforced on an International level and does not apply to small vessels and non-commercial vessels. There are however local regulations and National laws against marine pollution... again sewage is not enforced. When you have many millions of squatters in small area's defecating into whatever they can find it's a bit difficult to throw the law around. Our maritime authority, SAMSA, does however inspect vessels when entering ports, called a port state control inspection, for correct sewage systems operations.

Having said that the marina's all have club rules which forbid the use of any form of on-board toilet while within the marina boundaries. You are expected to go to the toilets at the club facilities. Again having said that unless you are caught nothing happens! If I had a tank on-board then I would also use it... The marina's are definitely not as advanced as what you guys have and most of them do not offer any form of pump out service. In fact you can't even buy fuel at our local marina!

Sewage solution = wait for a nice day, sail out beyond 12NM and carry on regardless!
Fuel supply solution = phone a friend with a pickup, go to public jetty and refuel from portable drums that were filled at a local auto filling station by said friend!

I did not however understand the term "sea-toilet" correctly as reading it above in other posts. I did mean a toilet that would flush to a tank. My thinking was there is plenty of space for said tank under the cockpit floor but the piping route is very invasive to say the least = was wondering if anyone had tried it.

Clearly though the idea towards a more modern porta-potti solution is the way to go from all the very good feedback above.

I also agree that I never want to see a person perching on the pullpit pushing putty either! Ruin my entire day

 

[CloudDiver]

Is your Jaguar 22 a swing keel or fin keel? I'm not too familiar with the small differences between the Jaguar manufactured boats, but I can tell you the US Catalina 22 swing keel has very little room for either a holding tank or an additional freshwater tank. There is in fact some space, under the V berth there is a storage locker that goes down to the hull bottom that could hold a decent sized holding tank. The problem is the opening to get in there is too small, it would have to be cut. A bladder could be used in the void under the port side just forward of where the toilet is, this again is under the V Berth liner fiberglass.
I'm a skinny guy and can squeeze into these spaces, but even for me its a pain to get in there so I imagine its a super pain in the butt to install the plumbing. The C22 is a small craft, so I can't imagine spending so many consecutive days onboard that would need more storage for flush water and holding capacity. Personally, I'm going with one of the toilets recommended above as I'll be onboard for max 3 days at a time. I will say its possible to install a more robust system, but probably not worth the headache and expense.
Too bad I missed you in Capetown, I was just there this past December... loved it, can't wait to visit again.

 

[w4swk]

I am looking at a composting toilet for our boat. When we built our loft inside the hangar, I built a compost toilet for use during a temporary period. It worked so well we ended up using it for almost a year before installing the "real thing". Once you get the hang of a compost toilet, you will find it hard to go back to a porta potti. Another plus is that it is easily transferred if one moves to another boat.

 

[Jackdaw]

I am looking at a composting toilet for our boat. When we built our loft inside the hangar, I built a compost toilet for use during a temporary period. It worked so well we ended up using it for almost a year before installing the "real thing". Once you get the hang of a compost toilet, you will find it hard to go back to a porta potti. Another plus is that it is easily transferred if one moves to another boat.

Don't they require constant airflow from a 12v fan?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I did not however understand the term "sea-toilet" correctly as reading it above in other posts. I did mean a toilet that would flush to a tank.

Any toilet on a boat is a "marine toilet." Any "sea toilet" can be plumbed to flush directly overboard or into a tank or treatment device or--with the addition of a y-valve--both.
A holding tank big enough to be worth the effort to install it along with all the plumbing needed for it and the toilet would need close to half the storage space on a 22' boat. Let's do some math:

The average flush from any manual marine toilet is +/- 2 liters. The average adult uses the toilet 5x/24 hrs. That's 3 gal/day/person. Granted, you're usually only likely to day sail for a few hours, but an occasional overnight isn't out of the question and there's no point in installing a tank that won't even hold that much...and you prob'ly won't want to have to pump it out every time you use the boat either. So 12 gals is about the minimum size tank worth the bother to install...and don't forget the expense for the toilet, all the hoses, installing a thru-hull for the flush water intake...not to mention all the maintenance needed to keep it all working as should.

IMO the only thing makes sense on any boat much smaller than about 28' is a self-contained system..an "MSD" portapotty. The "MSD" designation in the model name/number means it has fittings for a pumpout line and vent line, and is designed to be permanently installed (actually just sturdier brackets than portables, so you could still take it off the boat if you absolutely have to), which means that although it's still called a PORTApotty, you don't have to carry anything off the boat to empty it.
A 5-6 gallon model holds 50-60 flushes...you'd need at least a 30 gal tank to hold that many from a manual marine toilet. No plumbing needed except a vent line and pumpout hose--so no new holes in the boat...and -0- maintenance needed except for rinsing out the tank--which you can do with a bucket while it's being pumped out. Total cost including the pumpout hose and vent line is about $200 USD--a fraction of what you'd spend for toilet, tank and all the related plumbing needed. And the best part is, you have all the advantages of a toilet and holding tank without giving up a single square foot of storage space.
Check out the Thetford 550P MSD and the Dometic/SeaLand 975MSD Sanipottie. Both should be available from SA retailers.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[w4swk]

Don't they require constant airflow from a 12v fan?

When I built the compost for our loft, I allowed it to vent to atmosphere. We quickly learned that the most odor was from urine. I built a diverter which mostly eliminated the odor issue. I am looking at the Nature's Head unit which includes a 12V fan...so yes a fan of required. I believe that the fan could be run on a part time basis and still achieve satisfactory results. Finding extra power to run a fan part time in exchange for a toilet that will go for months between odorless "emptyings" is a fair trade off for me! Heck! Just switching to LED will give me back 2-5 amps per hour depending on use. We overnight a lot and use our anchor light religiously. I calculate around 6 amps consumed every 8 hours with incandescent anchor light alone. Everything is a trade off!

 

[Jackdaw]

When I built the compost for our loft, I allowed it to vent to atmosphere. We quickly learned that the most odor was from urine. I built a diverter which mostly eliminated the odor issue. I am looking at the Nature's Head unit which includes a 12V fan...so yes a fan of required. I believe that the fan could be run on a part time basis and still achieve satisfactory results. Finding extra power to run a fan part time in exchange for a toilet that will go for months between odorless "emptyings" is a fair trade off for me! Heck! Just switching to LED will give me back 2-5 amps per hour depending on use. We overnight a lot and use our anchor light religiously. I calculate around 6 amps consumed every 8 hours with incandescent anchor light alone. Everything is a trade off!

For sure, not saying it would not work. Just need to account for the power on a C22, a boat normally with limited 12v capacity and no charging capabilities.

 

[w4swk]

LOL...just can't help myself...have always been a " can do" kinda person. Too often we do things "cause its always been done that way".

 

[ShotgunSlim]

As a mostly solo sailor, I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents here. A sizable funnel with some tubing on the end shoved into the keel cable hose makes a jim dandy urinal for the guys. (and it may help prevent uneven keel cable wrapping on the winch drum, more research is needed) I've removed the Dometic porta potty from my boat and use a 5 gallon bucket with a sliced pool noodle around the rim for padding and Wag Bags for the waste. As has been noted in previous threads: You want stuff on the boat that have multiple uses. If I ever get an Admiral to sail with me, I'm know the Dometic will be coming back aboard.

 

[Jacktar]

Keep the dometic , i have a thetford, but use the wag bags to save using the tank and emptying it for short cruises. Female guest may require use of actual porta potty but try to discourage, large mouth jar will work, LOL

 

[JRT]

My Home Depot bucket with snap on toilet lid went from the port side to the starboard side this Sunday in a sporty gust! Glad the lid snapped closed and locked for sure. I use double heavy duty garbage bags with kitty litter in the bottom and kitty liter next to the bucket. Most likely this Friday, work day off, I'm going to build a solid hold down for it and the litter so we have less stuff moving around on sporty days...

For the record if I had nothing already, and I knew we would use it with longer trips I'd upgrade to the MSD as recommended. But for now our sailing is quick day sails and the bucket is really just fine and already paid for.

 

[w4swk]

My Home Depot bucket with snap on toilet lid went from the port side to the starboard side this Sunday in a sporty gust! Glad the lid snapped closed and locked for sure. I use double heavy duty garbage bags with kitty litter in the bottom and kitty liter next to the bucket. Most likely this Friday, work day off, I'm going to build a solid hold down for it and the litter so we have less stuff moving around on sporty days...

For the record if I had nothing already, and I knew we would use it with longer trips I'd upgrade to the MSD as recommended. But for now our sailing is quick day sails and the bucket is really just fine and already paid for.

Just FYI...if you will get some peat moss and sawdust shavings...then try as hard as possible to keep a lot of urine out of the bucket, you can easily stretch it to around two weeks. After each use, sprinkle some peat and sawdust...when ready to empty, simply place the garbage bag in the flower bed...a few weeks later it will just become.......dirt! If you don't fill the bag during one boating session, leave it alone and keep using during the next session. Doing so will only make the compost process better and faster!

As mentioned earlier, I learned these things during our hangar/loft building process at which time I built such a toilet, I was fascinated by how this whole compost thing works...my wife thinks I'm crazy...

P.S. Enclosing a pic of the temporary toilet I built (we ended up using this for almost a year)