Recommended loft for sail inspection and recutting

[kveach]

Hi Gene,
Thanks for the tip about Masthead. I have a couple loft calls I'll be making tomorrow them included. I'd love to meet a fellow trailer sailor and will definately give you a private message when I'm back in town. I'll show you the boat and I'm sure you'll have ideas for what I can still improve. Being so close maybe we can find some good weather and get out on Newnan's Lake. I'd love to see your Catalina as well.
Cheers and fair winds

 

[kveach]

Thanks DL, I'll do the "toast test" when I get home and do a driveway sail hoist.
Cheers and fair winds

 

[kveach]

Hi JS and Kings,
Thanks for your thoughts! I'm not so inclined to race (it's a slow boat afterall) and more like the experience of putting in at new harbors and going off exploring and "camping" with my wife. However I love the art of getting the boat in the sweet spot and having good handling and speed.
And truth told I'm enough of a geek to really like to get the technical and cosmetic things right.

So I got to this point of "let's take some first steps with the main" this way. She's been rerigged (standing and running), tuned to the best of my novice ability, with a rebuilt and faired rudder a newish 110 jib and the old main. I took her out on a gusty day and single handed. She behaved well close on the 10 mph breeze. Incoming storms and we got gusts above 15 mph. Next thing I knew I saw water at the rub rail! Not sure if I had the outhaul and the vang as tight as needed, but I did feel surprised that the boat was overpowered by a moderate gust. And like I've mentioned, the sail looks like it pooches out too much when it should be flatter. But it's clean feels strong and crinkly. But I really don't have enough experience to have a feel for the state of the sail. And I want to sail better while I take my time to shop for the right new sail. So I want to call on a pro.

I like the golf club analogy and do have to resist looking for new toys to tinker with and just sail... weather permitting.

Cheers and fair winds

 

[Kings Gambit]

To handle gusts have the sails trimmed correctly. Out-haul be should tensioned, traveler (if you have one) should be let down, backstay should be tensioned to flatten the sail at the top of the mast, cunningham should be applied to move forward the draft of the mainsail and--if the boat still seems to be going over too far; feather up into the wind to flatten her. Then proceed after the gust has passed, etc.

 

[kveach]

Thanks Kings,
I've been working on the feather upwind or ease the sheet technique to reduce heel for a while in our 18 foot Sanibel so I was surprised to get caught so off guard. Still getting the hang of single handing the trim on the O'day. The outhaul runs through the boom to a cam and I honestly think I forgot to tighten it before the gust. No Cunningham tho the grommet is in the sail. No traveller and the sheet attaches to a triangle plate on the back stay which does tend to want to bend the mast when you sheet in hard. So there are limits to finessing the trim. But it's fun. And it doesn't have to live in a marina.
Cheers

 

[mm2347]

A traveler was a huge improvement. I ended up placing it about a foot back of companionway. It really has not been in the way. Watch ebay for the type that adjusts with lines at each end. I disliked and replaced the traveler that adjusted with pins. A tiller extension is also a huge improvement as it allows you to sit anywhere with no strain on your arms. On days when the wind is changeable, I will run the active jib sheet over the winch (not wrapped), across the companionway to the windward side winch so I can be on the high side and make adjustments.

 

[kveach]

Thanks MM,
Good thoughts. Did you notice a change in boat control that was just due to getting the sheet tackle off of the back stay? I suppose it was impossible to sort that out from the effect of using the traveller.
Cheers

 

[kveach]

Dave, I pretty much finished Brian Hancocks book. It was very educational and an enjoyable read. I'd certainly trust him to build a new sail when I'm ready. And Gene, I got in touch with Masthead and Paul was very helpful. He definately stressed that the price of a new sail in my size range might only be $3-400 more than repair and he didn't seem to think cutting would help much vs simple things like loosening the bolt rope. But he's willing to look at photos of the hoisted sail prior to me sending it off. So tomorrow I'll get some shots and send them off.
Fair winds

 

[mm2347]

It is hard to pin down. Overall getting the mainsheet off of the backstay and onto the traveler made the boat overall "feel" much more solid (??). This added more confidence as I believed I could control my sail shape without my rigging coming down or the boat going over. Before the traveler, I could not get away from lee helm with the old mainsheet system. Maybe it is the ability to easily make an adjustment and see-feel the effect as it was happening. What is enough, too much, then back again. The adjustments are so easily done I tend to do them!

 

[kveach]

Well everybody, months came and went and I never got a day to get good photos of a wind filled sail to send to a loft for thoughts about recutting the sail. So I've finally decided to just get a new main sail. Precision Sails had several choices including reinforcements to give more safety for off shore multiday trips. One of their designers was very generous with his time explaining the options. I'm leaning toward the radial cut sail with the offshore reinforcement package, 2 reefs, and 2 full battens and 2 partials, loose footed. Any thoughts? The actual quote is attached as a pdf (if it worked).

 

[JRT]

I would spec a main the same except the offshore package might be over kill.

Probably the only question for you and Precision is what is the wind range for needing the off shore package. Realistically will you really be in those conditions with a 222? The specs on the 222 look pretty sporty and could be a bit to exciting in high with to me.

 

[Jackdaw]

I have always liked Precision's sales quotes. You can learn quite a bit about sailmaking by reading them. I'd agree that offshore is probably overkill. 'Offshore' mean that you are sailing so far away from shore that you cannot avoid weather that you can see coming in the 3-day forecast. Your boat (and how I suspect you use it) is really a coastal cruiser. If you see weather coming that you don't like to sail in (say 20+ knots) you simply don't go out, or head to harbor before it hits. No need to over-buy; heavier sailcloth is a liability in lighter conditions.

Me? I'd go with the tri-radial challenger for $700.

 

[kveach]

Thanks John,
I woke up this morning thinking to ask the senior designer the wind range question today, mainly for the radial sail. At $56 extra the reinforcements of the offshore package seem like cheap insurance. Mainly we'll be doing off shore day sails, but are planning back country Keys trips of multiple days and possibly a crossing or two such as the Dry Tortugas or the Bahamas (with major attention to weather of course). But you're right with only 800 lbs ballast and centerboard I'm sure it could get pretty bouncy. Haven't experienced that yet, though.

Cheers
Kevin

 

[kveach]

Thanks Jackdaw,
I was really impressed with the detail in the Precision quote as well. The tri radial Challenger is exactly the sail I'm thinking of. I'll call today and see what they say about the weight penalty for the off shore package. Summer here is definately a light wind challenge for sailing. And yes, coastal cruising is the right term for our sailing style. Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
Kevin

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks Jackdaw,
I was really impressed with the detail in the Precision quote as well. The tri radial Challenger is exactly the sail I'm thinking of. I'll call today and see what they say about the weight penalty for the off shore package. Summer here is definately a light wind challenge for sailing. And yes, coastal cruising is the right term for our sailing style. Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
Kevin

The majority of the cost in any 'offshore' sail construction is in the labor. The extra stitching, patches, etc take time to do. Given any weight of sailcloth, an offshore sail will be only marginally heavier than a coastal version. While overkill, if you feel better with the 3 row of stitching, go for it.

Is Sandy Goodall the designer?

 

[Gunni]

Avoid the up-sale, no way does your boat, experience, or cruising grounds suggest “off-shore”. Sorry. Spend your money on upgrades to the base sail, things like full battens, reinforcements and maybe an extra reef. That will allow you to shape and protect your sail against conditions you may stumble into. You will be very pleased. If you do decide to become an off-shore sailor, you will be trading this boat soon enough with a nice suit of sails. Get a suit of sails and just go sailing.

 

[kveach]

Hi Jackdaw and Gunni,
Don't know the designer yet. They assign one when I put my deposit down. But I spoke with a Jeremy yesterday. Gunni, you nailed it. I was already planning on 2 reefs, reinforced corners, 2 full battens. Would it even matter to go to all full battens?
Thanks again,
Kevin

 

[Gunni]

Full battens do a great job of stabilizing the sail so you can avoid flogging and related damage. They will add some of the protection you seek. You will also find them useful for those low-wind Florida days - they hold the foil shape you are looking for to generate lift. Be really clear with the designer about your experience and intended use, he/she are auditioning to be your partner in this. I would not use a designer that did not challenge my assumptions.

 

[dlochner]

Precision Sails recently supported the Haiti Sailing Cup a competition among Haitian fishermen. It is an interesting sailing event that supports an otherwise very poor community. Take a look at these 2 videos:

and

As others have said, I think a full on offshore sail for your boat and intended use is overkill. When I was purchasing new sails, I choose a "Coastal Cruising" sail. The sail has heavier sail cloth than the day sailing version but not as heavy as the offshore sails. Offshore sails are really designed for extended periods of time, like days, in very strong winds 20+ Knots. I doubt you'll do that in your boat.

I also went with a trim-radial design. This design should hold its shape longer than a traditional cross cut sail and at my age I don't want to buy another sail. Last season I replaced an older cross cut dacron 150% genoa with a tri-radial 135%. Except for down wind in light air I saw no loss of performance and perhaps even a gain. The new main will be loose footed tri-radial with 2 full battens and 2 partial battens. The 2 partial lower battens in conjunction with the loose foot allows for better shaping of the lower part of the sail. Full battens do help preserve the sail, however, they also make it harder to trim the sail. Because the battens drive the shape of the sail once there is any air flow over the sail they will look trimmed even if they are not optimally trimmed. With full battens it is essential to pay close attention to the tell tales on the leach to get it trimmed right.

Which ever way you go, you will see and enjoy improved sailing with your new sails!

 

[JRT]

Curious how much experience do you and your wife have in the ocean in a small boat? Mine would kill me if I took her out in any conditions other then perfect and that 222 just seems like it would be better to stay in sight of land. For your reference, my 115 jib from them did wonderful this year and I stuck with the basic sail package and no upgrades.

Also you didn't say if this was a full set of new sails or just the main, I sailed my first year on old sails and then got a new jib and an almost new North Sail Main (2 full battens, loose foot, 1 reef) and love the way the boat handles so much better. I did one sail this year with my old 150 jib and just hated it after getting use to my crisp new sail cloths. My point is strongly consider getting both sails upgraded, and if cost is an issue just don't go crazy on options.

Oh and make your own measurements don't take the standard size approach. It isn't hard and you will get a proper sail.