Question about 2-speed winches

[SFS]

I'm wondering if I'm confused about the operation of 2-speed winches. I thought that rotating the handle one way would give you one speed, and rotating it the other way would give you the other speed. Does the winch handle have to be in position for this to occur? Or perhaps the winch has to be under load?

I ask because at the dock today I rotated (by hand) all of my winches, and they all only rotated in one direction. I have two Barlow 20's and two Barlow 23's. Both are supposedly 2-speed winches. Am I missing something simple?

 

[woodster]

they only turn one way no matter which way you crank...but if you notice on the 2 speed ones there is a difference in the drum speed ...a good way to check this is to mark the top of the drum and count the rotations of the drum when turning the crank one full rotation

 

[Calif. Ted]

." I thought that rotating the handle one way would give you one speed, and rotating it the other way would give you the other speed." That has always been my experience, but I've only used Lewmars and Harkens the last couple decades. Doesn't require load but you have to turn the center spindle with a handle. Only the center spindle (and handle) turns both ways, the drum only turns one way (clockwise) as Woodster said.

 

[Skipper]

Counter clockwise cranking is high speed, clockwise is low speed. Lewmar 40's.

On a single speed, counter clockwise is cranking, clockwise is only clicking, like a ratchet.

 

[Joe]

The drum always rotates clock wise, the pawls inside keep it from rotating backwards. With a single speed winch, cranking the handle clockwise turns the drum in the same direction, counter clockwise it will "ratchet" just like a wrench. With a two speed winch, clockwise grinding is the same as the single speed, however, counter clockwise grinding will engage another set of gears which keep the drum rotating in the same direction, but at a lower the speed, thus increasing the power. You can easily determine this by inserting the handle into the winch and watch the drum when you crank both ways.

 

[JohnShannon]

like everybody says, drum only rotates in one direction. If it didn't? how exactly would you sheet in?

 

[SFS]

Thanks all. Sounds like the winch handle is the key. I was conducting my experiment with my hands, just before getting off the boat, and was in a hurry. I am aware that the drum will only rotate one direction (that's what the pawls are for). I can rotate the drum in that direction by hand, but my attempts to turn the inner section (by putting sliding pressure on the cover plate in the center of the drum with my fingers) just met with lockup. I'll try it today with the handle.

 

[centerline]

Thanks all. Sounds like the winch handle is the key. I was conducting my experiment with my hands, just before getting off the boat, and was in a hurry. I am aware that the drum will only rotate one direction (that's what the pawls are for). I can rotate the drum in that direction by hand, but my attempts to turn the inner section (by putting sliding pressure on the cover plate in the center of the drum with my fingers) just met with lockup. I'll try it today with the handle.

yep, you NEED to turn the center where the winch handle goes... you cannot tell by turning the drum by hand.

 

[SFS]

Ok, so I tried all four winches today on the boat, and they only drive the drum when rotating the winch handle in one direction. When you reverse the winch handle direction, I hear the pawls clicking past stops, but the drum does not rotate. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I have the "owner's manuals" (basically an exploded diagram for each winch) from Barlow/Barient of Australia, and both models are billed as two-speed winches.

 

[Whigman]

Any chance there's a lever or switch to flip before you turn the other way? I profess no expertise in this but remember a model winch in middle school in India as a "modern" way if raising a bucket of water from a well that had a lever to hit before using the second speed

 

[Ted]

Being that you have exploded view drawings of each winch model, take the drum off and see if there are any missing gears or parts. Barlow/Barient made different versions of some of their winch models. It very well could be that your winches are the single speed version of the 20 & 23.

 

[Joe]

y

Any chance there's a lever or switch to flip before you turn the other way?

No.... that's no the way they work. If you're lucky your simply missing one of the two sets of pawls,(the 2 speeds have a set of pawls for each direction) or they're sticking and not letting the shaft engage the idler gear. The pawls and springs can be found with a little work... West marine will most likely have springs to fit.. and I think the lewmar pawls are a pretty close match.
If you're really lucky it will just be sticking pawls requiring a simple clean up job... NEVER put winch grease on the pawls... just a drop or two of light machine oil.
If you're totally unlucky.. the idler gear will be missing... bummer. Anyway... here's a link to the Barlow winches.... it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Note: "2 speed" will be printed on top of the winch, next to model number.

 

[Roadking Larry]

I had 2 speed Barlows on my Cal when I got it. at the time I didn't realize they were 2 speed winches till I cleaned and serviced them (probably for the first time in over a decade).

 

[SFS]

I took apart all 4 winches last week, because I suspected they had not been serviced is a long time, and I was correct. Each one was greased with a different grease, in vastly different amounts. In one, the pawl springs were overcome by the tackiness of the aging grease. I cleaned all parts, lubed them properly, using only a very light machine oil on the pawls. All of the pieces were in remarkably good shape. I encountered no difficulties, and reassembled them as they came apart, using pictures on my phone to verify.

None of the winches say "2-speed" on them beside the model number on the top plate. It is clear to me now, with all the forum input, and rewinding my mental tape of the cleanings, that the 20's cannot be two speed, as there is only one set of pawls in the entire winch. Now that I look more closely, the one page piece of documentation sent to me by the Barlow successor in Australia for the 20 does not say 2-speed on the diagram.

However, the diagram for the 23 does say "2-speed", and in each of these 23's there were 2 pairs of pawls, each engaging in a different set of lands. Idler gears were present in both of the 23's. I guess they could be one-speed versions, but does the second set of pawls make that unlikely?

 

[Joe]

However, the diagram for the 23 does say "2-speed", and in each of these 23's there were 2 pairs of pawls, each engaging in a different set of lands. Idler gears were present in both of the 23's. I guess they could be one-speed versions, but does the second set of pawls make that unlikely?

If you look closely you will notice that the two sets of pawls are mounted to ratchet in opposite directions. In the Barlow machines, If there are two sets, then it's a two speed... there will also be an extra gear and pinion.... Look closely at the link I provided for the exploded diagram of the 2 speed #19 and #23 winches and compare with the very simple single speed.#15 & #16.... Notice.... NO GEARS.. because the winch handle and drum diameter provide purchase, the pawls prevent the drum from slipping.
So.... you can pretty much figure out the workings of your #20 (which isn't listed in my link) by simply looking at the parts...but whether you get this or not... if you put the winch back together correctly and it only works in one direction then it's a single speed.

 

[SFS]

Joe thanks for the link, that's the source of my diagram for the 23. In the 23 I definitely have an idler gear on a shaft. That gear meshes with gearing on the internal drum. I do have two sets of pawls, located as the diagram indicates, so those two pieces of info confirm this is a two speed winch. The winch handle turns in both directions, but only one of those directions drives the winch drum. Any thoughts on that specifically?

The winches were put back together correctly. It's a really simple winch - the only ways to screw up reassembly (aside from greasing the pawls instead of oiling) would be to put pawls back in the wrong locations (which can't happen - they are identical parts, according to the parts list), put the pawl springs in reversed (which the diagram will prevent you from doing if you can read, plus the pawls snapped back in place crisply when lubed and tested), or put in the idler gear upside down on its shaft (it has a slightly raised flange along its inner diameter on one side only). I put it back in the way I found it, which was flange down (on both winches). I am certainly willing to break the winch down again and reverse this gear, just to test it empirically, but could that really be the problem?

If we assume the winch is reassembled correctly, what else could be going on here? I'll go down to the boat in a few minutes and record which direction of handle rotation works, and which one does not, in case that helps with a diagnosis.

The 20's are definitely one speed, the have no gears internally. Thanks again to all who responded, and to anyone that can add the final piece to the puzzle here.

 

[All U Get]

I have Lewmars and made the mistake of not carefully looking at the idler gear. One side has an ever-so-slight recess that I didn't notice. Put it back together and it didn't work in two speeds. Once apart I could see the indent so I flipped the gear and it worked fine. That was the 2nd winch I had cleaned and the first one worked fine with only one assembly, now what are the odds of that?

All U Get

 

[justsomeguy]

I have Lewmars and made the mistake of not carefully looking at the idler gear. One side has an ever-so-slight recess that I didn't notice. Put it back together and it didn't work in two speeds. Once apart I could see the indent so I flipped the gear and it worked fine. That was the 2nd winch I had cleaned and the first one worked fine with only one assembly, now what are the odds of that?

All U Get

Kudos for disassembling one at a time.

 

[SFS]

I have a final update. After a series of 30 emails back and forth with Hutton Winches in Australia (the successor to Barlow/Barient), I received a lot of input and troubleshooting guidance, but had made no progress on the problem. So I made a video showing the behavior of the winch, and showing that I put the winch together correctly, with all pawls actuating appropriately. I sent the video to Hutton.

The response I got was "You never said it was a model 23 Self Tailing. All self tailing 23s were single speed". So I wasted a lot of time and energy, part of which was because I was led down a bit of a garden path once the Hutton guy stated in an email that the 23 was never made in a single speed version. Once he and I started talking about one pair of pawls versus the other, and whether the idler gear could be stopped by hand when rotating the handle one way but not the other, I was sure we were on to something. However, it was obviously partly my fault, as I never mentioned the self tailing feature. Lesson learned. Maker, model number AND serial number are always important in parts work, and in effect, I left out the "serial number" here.

For anyone that knows as little about winches as I did when this started, here is an important summary:

1) As Joe said in #15 above, if you have put the winch back together correctly and it only works in one direction, it is a one-speed winch.
2) A second pair of pawls, or the presence of gears, in a winch does not make it a two-speed winch..

Thank you all for the responses and for the help.