Portable or Fixed VHF

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Randy

I am in the market for a VHF radio for my C22. I sail in a lake mostly but may take the boat up to the Puget Sound area in the future (but never actually out in the open ocean). I'm leaning towards a hand-held unit because of the size and not putting a load on the battery but thought I'd check with all of you. What do you advise? Where is a good place to install a VHS that is handy but not intrusive? Thanks for your help.
 
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Dave

VHF Installation

I installed my fixed unit on the starboard side under the window back by the bulkhead that separates the cabin from the cockpit. My electrical panel is on the bulkhead itself (boat is a 1988 model) just adjacent to it. I went with a fixed unit for a number of reasons. I wanted transmit power. I didn't want to have to carry a small hand-held around, remember where it is, drop it overboard, etc. I didn't want to deal with the batteries for a hand-held (I have shore power and on-board charging system for the house battery). I liked the features and price of the unit I have (ICOM IC-M45). As far as a "load" on a deep-cycle marine battery, it's not a problem. I transmit very rarely, so power consumption is really not an issue. One of things I researched when I was looking for a radio was the power consumption while in standby and receiving mode. The IC-M45 has good characteristics in that department. Dave, 14447
 
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Trevor

VHF power

Randy - I'd definitely consider adding a fixed VHF radio to your instrument collection on your boat if you plan on sailing in Puget Sound. Sure you could get by with the handheld (makes a great backup and is easy to call marinas when right out front), but a fixed radio has much more power (there are BIG SHIPS out there!) and should be more reliable (those AA batteries always seem to go out at the worst time). Just my 2 cents. Have fun out there. Trevor
 
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Joe Barrett

Carry Both!

As was said handhelds can and will die, Redundant systems are important for survival!
 
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Jeff Barger

For the sake of confusion.....

I agree that fixed mount radios have a larger range, remember VHF radios are typically line-of-sight so if you have an antenna mounted atop you mast you will transmit and receive more effectively with other operator further away. I also agree that redundancy is a must for safe offshore passage making. However, if you are like me, and must budget you accessories and get the best coverage for a limited amount of sailing cash, it may not be practical to go out and buy both all at one time. Therefore, in the sake of a balanced suite of replies I'll put a good word in for handhelds. I recently went through exactly what you are now and I will tell you why I didn't go with a fixed mount. I have an older 22 (1978) and it would have taken a significant effort to locate and install a connection at the deck near the mast to attach the antenna cable for my boat. Plus, I trailer some and this seemed to be more of a hassle than I wanted. Power supply, you probably run off one battery, if you are out several days without access to charging, then that precious battery power might better serve you for navigation lights and etc. Plus, if you do lose power, at least you can plug batteries into your handheld and have a radio. Besides, they make models that not only have two different battery supplies, you can also charge or power them with either ac or dc power. That means if you add a 12 volt plug (cigarette lighter style) you can run your handheld off the house battery or from alkaline batteries. More options, in my mind, means more redundancy. Plus, when I move up in a couple of years (fingers crossed)I can easily take the handheld with me to complement whatever communications might come with that boat. So consider your needs, and the level of work you want to put into you communications and choose what will work best for you. Good luck. jb
 
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Kirk

Both, if you can swing it.

I replaced the old fixed mount VHF right when I bought the boat. I wanted to know I could rely on it. The old one was/is really old. Then I bought the hand-held as a Christmas Bonus present. The hand-held is a great back up and is very handy around the marina and in Harbors with Water Taxi's. I also like using the hand-held for weather broadcasts everywhere (at home the night before leaving, at work, while traveling, bareboating trips....) Both, if you can swing it.
 
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Joe

vhf advice....

get a submersible hand-held first. So you can use it away from the boat. Then save your money and get an inexpensive fixed-mount, they are a lot more powerful, the money you save on batteries for the hand-held will pay for it in a couple of years. Install the fixed mount on the ceiling near the hatch so you can use and hear it from the cockpit and in the cabin both. Remember the fixed mounts are usually very weather resistant also..
 
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Aldo

We don't really use ours much

Randy: We have a fixed VHF, and it is mounted on the Starboard side near the rear of cabin, to the underside of the cabin top, as others have replied to you. The new ones are nice and small. To be honest with you, we don't use it very much at all. Even when we cruise with a fleet of boats, we just don't use it very much. What we do use is our cell phone. Maybe we will get a bunch of responses to this, telling me that I'm crazy, but I'm just giving my opinion. I would say we use our cell phone more than 10 times as much as our VHF. We have called marinas, other boats, and also restaurants with it, not to mention family and friends at home. We haven't called the Coast Guard with it, but we do have a list of numbers, and I think we certainly could. So, my thoughts would be to see if anyone else on the lake that you sail on uses a VHF before you spend any money on one, and spend the time to run the wire inside the mast. (There are some things that you should know before you do that, but that's another message). There are other accessories that you will enjoy more, and if you have a cell phone anyway, you might just use that instead. (We do have an adapter to plug the cell phone into the boat's electrical system). Aldo
 
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RonD

VHF vs CellPhones, etc.

I use all three -- cell phone, fixed VHF, and handheld VHF. Each are appropriate for specific usage, and each are complementary as alternate & redundant communications. Further, that "specific usage" is a key factor for safety, as the *primary reason* for a VHF radio is safety at sea and collision avoidance. As to frequency of usage, that's really not the point -- I have never used my PFDs, but I still carry them & test them to make sure they will do their job! The occasional call to the marina, water taxi, or another boat serves as an effective transmitter check; listening to channel 16 traffic (required) is an effective test of the receiver. To sum it up quite simply, a. Cell Phones are great on coastal cruises for calling home, marinas, ordering pizza, etc. However, they are private and therefore a very poor substitute for use during distress situations. b. A cell phone is a point-to-point, private device. If the dialed party isn't answering, nobody else will. Further, if you call 911 or the local USCG, etc. they have no efficient way to trace your call to locate you to anything other than a cell-zone. c. A VHF radio is a public broadcast device, so in an emergency many will be capable of hearing/responding. Further, the USCG routinely uses radio direction finding on a distress signal to help locate the source. On the other hand, there is no such thing as a private conversation. d. A fixed VHF installation generally has the added power (5 & 25 watts), antenna height, and selectivity/filtering to get the needed range of coverage. That house battery will keep it working for a very long time, too. e. A handheld VHF has limited power (1 & 5 watts), (often) sensitivity & selectivity, and battery life (as others pointed out). The attached stub antenna doesn't have the height or efficiency that a mast-top unit does (much of the power is radiated into your head, too). I have had both handheld and fixed radios operate side-by-side, and the handheld misses much of the traffic (including USCG PAN-PAN & SECURITY calls) unless it's very local. --RonD
 
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John

handheld w/aux antenna?

Maybe an auxilary mast top antenna could be used with a handheld VHF to help increase the range and versatility. We did a little sea kayak camping trip once and were issued a handheld VHF with a separate antenna setup that included a small line with a heavy lead weight on one end. We were instructed to toss the weight over a tree limb, tie on the antenna, hoist it up and plug it in. We were supposed to check in by radio every evening at an appointed time and apparently this would be our best, maybe only, chance of hitting the repeater outside the fiords we were in. I have fond memories of attempting this little maneuver in the force 10 storm we experienced on that trip ... but that's another story. Anyway, just a thought. John
 
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Dave

VHF vs Cellphone

So far I've only used my fixed VHF to monitor weather and listen for distress calls from other boaters (knock on wood - haven't heard one or had to make one). I never transmit with it. When I need to contact someone from the boat, I'll use my cell phone. If I were to have an emergency, I'd be using the VHF AND the cellphone in a heartbeat. Dave, 14447
 
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R Kolb

Thanks! - Now How to Install??

Thanks for all the great info!! I made the decision to purchase a fixed mount VHF AND carry our cell phone with an adapter in case its battery goes low. I also purchased a mast-head antenna and 60' of coax. So, with my 1986 C22 and assuming I mount the VHF on the starboard side below the window near the bulkhead close to the electric panel, what's the best way to run the coax to and up the mast? Also how about the antenna bracket mounting to the mast-head. Anything to be especially aware of? Thanks!! This is a very helpful forum. Randy 13227
 
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Dave

Re: How to Install

Installing isn't too bad at all. It took me a few hours, but I tend to go slow with this kind of work. I mounted my antenna bracket with the same screws that attach the anchor light stem to the top of the mast. I had to re-drill one new hole in the antenna bracket to match the pattern for the two screws. As for pulling the wire, I went to Menards (home builder's supply) and bought a wire puller and some lubricant for about $15. I debated whether to run it through the conduit (already had electrical wires for the lights)or just down through the mast. I was concerned about interferring with the internal halyards, so the conduit route was the choice. I was able to push the puller all the way down through the PVC conduit and used it to pull the coax back through. The lubricant really helped here. I drilled holes in the mast for the coax to exit and used rubber grommets from Catalina Direct in the holes to protect the coax from any sharp edges. To get the coax into the cabin, I used a removable seal from Catalina Direct (don't remember exactly what it's called or what brand). I drilled a 3/4" hole through the cabin roof directly in front of the lighting plug. The seal allows me to put the coax connector through the hole so the connection is on the inside away from the water and weather. The seal has a tapered split rubber plug that then goes aroung the coax and gets squeezed when tightened to produce a water-tight seal. It works very well. I checked it thoroughly with the garden hose and it doesn't leak at all. Inside the cabin, I ran the coax from where the radio is installed (exactly where you're going to install yours) down under the dinette (via the existing wiring conduit), and then up through the mast support. It was a little tricky getting that done, but it's do-able. My connection is made right there at the top of the mast support. The connector tends to hang right between the two pieces of metal webbing on the front of the mast support, so it's almost hidden. West Marine has a small plastic cover that will hide the 3/4" hole inside the cabin and it has a small exit hole in it for the coax. It really turned out to be a clean installation. I'm very happy with it. Hope that helps, Dave, 14447
 
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Aldo

Noise Issue

Randy: I don't know if you have internal halyards and a conduit, or not, but you really must address the noise issue, created by the boat rocking and the wires striking the inside of the mast when the boat rocks at night. I'm not a fan of a conduit inside the mast, unless you do have internal halyards. This issue has been discussed in depth before, so you should probably check the archives on it, if you don't have a conduit. Aldo
 
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Dave

Re: Noise Issue

Aldo, What don't you like about the PVC conduit in the mast? Seems like a good way to keep things secured and organized inside the mast. Other than the conduit getting "crowded" from lots of wires and making it difficult to add more, I can't think of any problems with it. Dave, 14447
 
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Randy

Conduit? What conduit?

Great info folks! My 1986 C22 has the full complement of mast lights (anchor, deck, bow) and I have worked on the wiring to them. There is no conduit in my mast and I do have internal halyards. The wiring harness just goes up there. I have never had a problem with this setup. Am I just lucky? As long as the coax and my electric harness have no splices and are smooth do they really pose a problem to the halyards? Thanks. Randy
 
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Dave

Re: conduit?

My mast has a small PVC conduit attached inside against the leading edge of the mast. I suppose it might not be OEM, but it looks like a factory installation. I believe it's pop-riveted to the mast from the outside. As for the possibility of problems if you don't have the conduit, I don't see how things could get tangled with the halyards. Possibly some chaffing could occur, but it would take forever to do any real damage. I thought about just running my antenna coax down through the open mast, but felt better about securing it inside the conduit. I'll be running more wiring for the wind transducer this winter and I don't think I can get anything more inside the conduit. I'm going to have to do something else if I want to secure the wire from "slapping" around in there as Aldo described. When I made my decision about how to install the coax, I didn't even think about the possible slapping noise. I'm glad I heard it hear before my next installation. Dave, 14447
 
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Aldo

Conduit? It's the weight

Dave: The issue that I have with a conduit is the weight of it, although it is probably just a pound or 2, has a moment of probably 27 feet. In other words there is a lot of mechanical advantage associated with that little bit of weight, pushing the mast over. I know it probably isn't really that significant, and all of the weight isn't at the top of the mast, but I'm just funny about it. When I ran wires inside my mast, I made spacers that were shapped like "X"s from milk jugs, and spaced them every few feet. I later read in this fourm that someone just took wire ties, and located them at a distance that prevented the wires from striking the inside of the mast. I thought that was a pretty good idea, but haven't tested it myself. I also have that same kind of feeling about aerodynamic drag, and have a difficult time putting the covers onto the shrouds, but I have done that. Also, whenever I add something permanent to the boat, or now even things that we carry routinely on the boat, I always try to evaluate their weight. Sometimes I drill or machine (hollow) out extra weight. I know this must sound really silly, but the way I look at it, if you just keep adding stuff to your boat, year after year, it is going to ride lower and lower in the water, and therefore go slower and slower. I know when I swim around our boat it seems to be lower in the water. Also, my 2 sons, that we always sail with, are now getting big, they are 16 and 17, and they are starting to weight it down too. (We started sailing this boat before they were even born). Sometimes their weight can be an advantage of having movable balast, but usually it isn't. Maybe in a few years they will get their own boat and I will have more room, and a lighter boat. I really laughed when I read the responses to the question about how many people do you take on your boat, and people with 40+ footers were whining about cruising with more than 2 people on their boats. Aldo
 
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Dave

Re: Conduit Weight

Aldo, Being weight conscious isn't silly at all. You're absolutely right about the weight aloft up on the mast. In fact, I read some posts from some guys that were talking about how little weight it would take at the top of the mast to hold the mast down on the water if the boat were to roll that far. I don't remember the exact specs, but it was very surprising how little it would take. With all that leverage at the end of a 26 foot lever, it makes sense. Why would anyone fortunate enough to have a 40+ foot cruiser have ANYTHING to whine about! <laugh> I don't take my boat for granted at all. I love every minute when I'm out on it regardless of passengers, crew, lack of crew, weather or whatever. Well ok..... I'm not fond of calm winds....but I'm not complaining!!! <grin> By the way, thanks for all your posts. It's a huge help to have people who don't mind sharing their expertise and experiences. It sure helps those of us who are new to the C22 world. Much appreciated! Dave, 14447
 
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Randy

Thanks Everyone!

Thanks folks, I have the info I need! I'm going to go without conduit. I read thru the archives about the "slap" issue and I think I'll try some sort of thin pipe insulation every couple of feet. I believe that the plastic X's or wire ties would interfere with the internal halyards. Thanks again. Randy, 13227
 
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