P42 Fresh Water Plumbing
- Thread starter Terry Cox
- Start date
Our Little Plumbing Incident
I shut the water pump off and began trouble shooting. All the fittings that I could see and/or touch were dry. Since the fresh water that was filling up the bilge was very warm, I narrowed the problem to the 23 year old Seaward hot water tank. No visible leaks so I figured it was leaking through the bottom of the tank where we could not see. Rather than change our cruising plans I disconnected the hot water source from the system and capped it off so that we at least had potable water.
After installing the new Seaward tank, the same thing happened when I turned the water pump on; it was as if one of the fixtures was wide open. Only one thing to do, start by opening everything up. After several hours still no visible leak in the system. Very frustrating.
Our buddy boater helper left and I was contemplating next steps. I had just switched over from the mid to the forward tank, which sits higher. There was one place I wanted to double check again since it had a slow drip at the tee fitting that I had fixed when we purchased Belle-Vie in 2002. With my brightest flashlight, I checked that small opening in the engine room where you can see the sit tub pan. This time I see a fast drip (gravity feed I suspect), so I have the admiral turn the water pump on. Eureka, I can see a strong stream of water coming from the tee fitting. Whew! Now the real fun begins.
Hunter used 1/2 inch Zurn (Quest) Pex Quicktite brand polybutylene plastic for the fresh water system on our 1991 P42. It has worked well for us over the years and was trouble free. It is also very reliable when installed correctly. To gain access to the sit tub pan area I had to remove the lower 165 pound AGM 8D. Using one hand (only room for one), it took three hours to repair that one hot water tee fitting. What happened was that whoever put the fitting together did so incorrectly, which caused water pressure to eventually blow the tubing out of the fitting.
Each connection has three parts; the female threaded coupler, a rubber compression ring and a SS retainer. The compression ring gives the connection a water tight seal and the SS retainer locks the tube inside the fitting to the coupler. In our case the SS retainer was not used at this particular fitting.
Needless to say the fitting has been repaired and our system is once again leak free. Lots of pros and cons about the Zurn Pex product. It seems that later model boat builders are using a different product. Parts can still be obtained, however, but a bit difficult to find. A Bing search will provide a list of a few sources. I have obtained a few spare fittings in the event I need them.
At this point it would be silly to replace the water system, IMHO. It's that old adage, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". I'll talk more later about how Hunter installed the water system on our boat. Perhaps someone has a schematic they can share, we do not.
Terry Cox
During one of our several two week cruises this season, the admiral and I were having our morning joe at the Ganges, BC government dock when the water pump took off. We were connected to shore power with the water pump on, but no demand so no cycling until then.
I shut the water pump off and began trouble shooting. All the fittings that I could see and/or touch were dry. Since the fresh water that was filling up the bilge was very warm, I narrowed the problem to the 23 year old Seaward hot water tank. No visible leaks so I figured it was leaking through the bottom of the tank where we could not see. Rather than change our cruising plans I disconnected the hot water source from the system and capped it off so that we at least had potable water.
After installing the new Seaward tank, the same thing happened when I turned the water pump on; it was as if one of the fixtures was wide open. Only one thing to do, start by opening everything up. After several hours still no visible leak in the system. Very frustrating.
Our buddy boater helper left and I was contemplating next steps. I had just switched over from the mid to the forward tank, which sits higher. There was one place I wanted to double check again since it had a slow drip at the tee fitting that I had fixed when we purchased Belle-Vie in 2002. With my brightest flashlight, I checked that small opening in the engine room where you can see the sit tub pan. This time I see a fast drip (gravity feed I suspect), so I have the admiral turn the water pump on. Eureka, I can see a strong stream of water coming from the tee fitting. Whew! Now the real fun begins.
Hunter used 1/2 inch Zurn (Quest) Pex Quicktite brand polybutylene plastic for the fresh water system on our 1991 P42. It has worked well for us over the years and was trouble free. It is also very reliable when installed correctly. To gain access to the sit tub pan area I had to remove the lower 165 pound AGM 8D. Using one hand (only room for one), it took three hours to repair that one hot water tee fitting. What happened was that whoever put the fitting together did so incorrectly, which caused water pressure to eventually blow the tubing out of the fitting.
Each connection has three parts; the female threaded coupler, a rubber compression ring and a SS retainer. The compression ring gives the connection a water tight seal and the SS retainer locks the tube inside the fitting to the coupler. In our case the SS retainer was not used at this particular fitting.
Needless to say the fitting has been repaired and our system is once again leak free. Lots of pros and cons about the Zurn Pex product. It seems that later model boat builders are using a different product. Parts can still be obtained, however, but a bit difficult to find. A Bing search will provide a list of a few sources. I have obtained a few spare fittings in the event I need them.
At this point it would be silly to replace the water system, IMHO. It's that old adage, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". I'll talk more later about how Hunter installed the water system on our boat. Perhaps someone has a schematic they can share, we do not.
Terry Cox
Terry,
Well here I am again looking for help on the boat I just bought. Finally sailed it down to the marina where I, girlfriend and 6 yro child will be living on it in. I had the yard that I purchased the boat from do a "fresh water commissioning" and I wasn't there to witness since the boat was so far away.... a $180 waste of money for sure. According to his report, the Fresh water strainer continuously clogged but a little CLR and a few flushes should take care of that. He also noted that the front head sink (1991 Hunter passage) was leaking and should be replaced along with the front shower fixture.
Yesterday I hooked up the city water and the bilge pump immediately kicked on as soon as I turned on the pier faucet. OMG I have leaks EVERYWHERE. First leak is where I think you had yours- it is on a fitting inside the engine compartment on starboard wall, the grey poly tube blew out of the fitting. Then found leaks in galley sink (the PO used a cheap Menards home faucet and didn't connect it correctly) then of course the fore head sink wouldn't shut off and was corroded. Also heard water running behind the forward shower stall.
I have a real mess on board and now a lot of questions (along with regrets).
1. Did you ever get or find a fresh water schematic for the Hunter Passage 42s?
2. When I hook up to city water, how does that exactly work?
A. Does it fill the tanks at same time?
B. Where exactly does it tie in at to provide water (before the pump? After with a check valve?)
C. Does the city water go thru this same strainer as the yard mechanic said continuously clogs?
D. Where is this strainer?
E. When using city water, can I also use the water heater?
3. All pipe is grey and 3/8" so am I correct in assuming it is the discontinued Polybutylene tubing?
4. Can I use standard PEX fittings (readily available) to re-connect the grey poly tubing?
5. Am I correct in assuming I have to cut a hole in the Fore shower enclosure to get to the faucet to replace?
6. I am looking at a web site: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/polyb.html that has fittings that fit both PEX and Poly tube-your thoughts on this? I know eventually if not sooner I will have to be splicing the grey poly tube to fix more problems so it would be nice to be able to splice in pieces of PEX if possible since grey poly is no longer available (UGH).
7. Am I better off sailing out about 2 miles and drilling hole in bottom of boat and swimming back?
Thank you all so much for ANY information I can get. Really frustrated and the Xanex just isn't cutting it any more........
Well here I am again looking for help on the boat I just bought. Finally sailed it down to the marina where I, girlfriend and 6 yro child will be living on it in. I had the yard that I purchased the boat from do a "fresh water commissioning" and I wasn't there to witness since the boat was so far away.... a $180 waste of money for sure. According to his report, the Fresh water strainer continuously clogged but a little CLR and a few flushes should take care of that. He also noted that the front head sink (1991 Hunter passage) was leaking and should be replaced along with the front shower fixture.
Yesterday I hooked up the city water and the bilge pump immediately kicked on as soon as I turned on the pier faucet. OMG I have leaks EVERYWHERE. First leak is where I think you had yours- it is on a fitting inside the engine compartment on starboard wall, the grey poly tube blew out of the fitting. Then found leaks in galley sink (the PO used a cheap Menards home faucet and didn't connect it correctly) then of course the fore head sink wouldn't shut off and was corroded. Also heard water running behind the forward shower stall.
I have a real mess on board and now a lot of questions (along with regrets).
1. Did you ever get or find a fresh water schematic for the Hunter Passage 42s?
2. When I hook up to city water, how does that exactly work?
A. Does it fill the tanks at same time?
B. Where exactly does it tie in at to provide water (before the pump? After with a check valve?)
C. Does the city water go thru this same strainer as the yard mechanic said continuously clogs?
D. Where is this strainer?
E. When using city water, can I also use the water heater?
3. All pipe is grey and 3/8" so am I correct in assuming it is the discontinued Polybutylene tubing?
4. Can I use standard PEX fittings (readily available) to re-connect the grey poly tubing?
5. Am I correct in assuming I have to cut a hole in the Fore shower enclosure to get to the faucet to replace?
6. I am looking at a web site: https://www.plumbingsupply.com/polyb.html that has fittings that fit both PEX and Poly tube-your thoughts on this? I know eventually if not sooner I will have to be splicing the grey poly tube to fix more problems so it would be nice to be able to splice in pieces of PEX if possible since grey poly is no longer available (UGH).
7. Am I better off sailing out about 2 miles and drilling hole in bottom of boat and swimming back?
Thank you all so much for ANY information I can get. Really frustrated and the Xanex just isn't cutting it any more........
Ron,
I probably should have started a thread or PM'd Terry but with Qest/PEX/Shark bite/ ugh don't know.
As for the pre-purchase survey..... Yes a $1,000.00 dollar survey. But the boat couldn't be put in the water because of winter up here. So we had a hold back on the boat which was ate up in the engine. We couldn't put water to it because of the winterization/cold weather but survey said the FW system looked serviceable (?). Yes this is my MISTAKE for sure. I had a bad feeling but between the seller, his broker and my broker, I got the "everything works and is in great shape" spiel. We loved the model boat. We had been looking at two boats and because of my hesitation I missed out on the first one.
I probably should have started a thread or PM'd Terry but with Qest/PEX/Shark bite/ ugh don't know.
As for the pre-purchase survey..... Yes a $1,000.00 dollar survey. But the boat couldn't be put in the water because of winter up here. So we had a hold back on the boat which was ate up in the engine. We couldn't put water to it because of the winterization/cold weather but survey said the FW system looked serviceable (?). Yes this is my MISTAKE for sure. I had a bad feeling but between the seller, his broker and my broker, I got the "everything works and is in great shape" spiel. We loved the model boat. We had been looking at two boats and because of my hesitation I missed out on the first one.
while we wait for Terry, and he is the P42 god, I can answer a couple of questions you have posed..he can have the first few and provide more detail on these, but here you go.
3. Yes
4. standard pex fittings are not going to work with the grey stuff. There are MANY "standard" PEX sizes, each it's own beast. Pick one of the more popular ones, and I used sharkbite style connections, a bit more expensive but give you more options and ease of repair, IMHO. YOu can always use the compression rings and such. Just get a pair of good tools to make those repairs, when needed.
5. I fished the forward head shower fitting, thus preventing a hole cut, with a fishtape and new, real PEX, I made my own map and used red and blue to know which was which through out the boat. My kid had hands small enough to help. If I were to do it over, I would make a hole saw cut and put a waterproof unit back in.
6. I would go buy 100' of red and 100' of blue and plan on spending a week in the nearest cheap, safe hotel and replumb the whole boat, once. We took up the entire floor and used the old gray to pull in red and blue where we could and then pushed/fished red and blue to those areas. I replaced the shore water fitting (pressure reducer, strainer and anitsiphon all in one. I made a cold water manifold and would go ahead and do a hot water one as well. I used that at the base of the stairs and could feed and switch the two fresh tanks and feeds to the rest of the boat, aft head and transom shower (re ran hot and cold back there, instead of the cold like the factory did) Each manifold has an air valve stem for blowing out the lines, and that worked very well. Find a local plumbing supply house and get to know their best PEX guy ....you want to be able to get supplies that afternoon or the next day.
7. Save that option for when you change the holding tank, macerator and that plumbing. We did the blackwater and fresh water in the same two weeks, while we had the boat floor already up.
Feel free to PM me or email kd3pc at arrl dot net
3. Yes
4. standard pex fittings are not going to work with the grey stuff. There are MANY "standard" PEX sizes, each it's own beast. Pick one of the more popular ones, and I used sharkbite style connections, a bit more expensive but give you more options and ease of repair, IMHO. YOu can always use the compression rings and such. Just get a pair of good tools to make those repairs, when needed.
5. I fished the forward head shower fitting, thus preventing a hole cut, with a fishtape and new, real PEX, I made my own map and used red and blue to know which was which through out the boat. My kid had hands small enough to help. If I were to do it over, I would make a hole saw cut and put a waterproof unit back in.
6. I would go buy 100' of red and 100' of blue and plan on spending a week in the nearest cheap, safe hotel and replumb the whole boat, once. We took up the entire floor and used the old gray to pull in red and blue where we could and then pushed/fished red and blue to those areas. I replaced the shore water fitting (pressure reducer, strainer and anitsiphon all in one. I made a cold water manifold and would go ahead and do a hot water one as well. I used that at the base of the stairs and could feed and switch the two fresh tanks and feeds to the rest of the boat, aft head and transom shower (re ran hot and cold back there, instead of the cold like the factory did) Each manifold has an air valve stem for blowing out the lines, and that worked very well. Find a local plumbing supply house and get to know their best PEX guy ....you want to be able to get supplies that afternoon or the next day.
7. Save that option for when you change the holding tank, macerator and that plumbing. We did the blackwater and fresh water in the same two weeks, while we had the boat floor already up.
Feel free to PM me or email kd3pc at arrl dot net
Comment: Whoa, slow down, take a deep breath and have a brewski or three.
You have a real stumper here as I have never connected a city water hose directly to the system like what you did. One reason is that marinas around here tend to run the water pressure higher than what the boat's water pump normally delivers, which would explain the gushers you experienced. No water system schematic here either. Sorry, but where and how it connects to the boat's regular system, whether before or after the pump, ???.
Our system uses 1/2" OD Zurn Pex. You can still find suppliers if you search the web. Less common these days, however. You have peaked my interest, so next time to the boat I'll see what I can find out.
Terry,
Thank you. The only reason now that I am connecting city water is because I need to work on tanks. Unfortunately I am now a live aboard with daughter and GF so we need at least some working water. I have just purchased a 0-100 pressure regulator at McMaster Carr and will install hopefully today or tomorrow.
Thank you. The only reason now that I am connecting city water is because I need to work on tanks. Unfortunately I am now a live aboard with daughter and GF so we need at least some working water. I have just purchased a 0-100 pressure regulator at McMaster Carr and will install hopefully today or tomorrow.
You are most welcome. Treat her with care, the boat that is. She is a wonderful performer. At the time the Zurn PEX stuff was quality material and still is if installed properly. Very durable. The few problems we've had has to do with improperly assembled fittings; like the one beneath the aft head sit tub where access is through that small opening in the engine room. Like yours, ours leaked from the time we took possession in 2002, but it wasn't until three years ago when the hose blew out of the fitting that I finally decided to do it right. Glad I did, an inexpensive fix, but a pain to repair because of the limited access.
You do have my curiosity peaked about the city water connection and where things pipe inside the boat. Another project along with all the others to keep her ship shape. There must be some sort of a manifold where the city water interfaces with the boat system, which must be near the aft head plumbing. I'll let you know how things go after I hook up the city water hose. Your idea of a pressure regulator is a good one to avoid overpowering the boat's system.
Pretty sure the city water supply line runs down the starboard engine wall, up and into under sink where it tees into that line. Found out marina is running at 85 psi so ordered a pressure reducing valve with pressure gauge from McMaster Carr.
Did have to cut two holes in fore shower to replace shower fixture.
Did have to cut two holes in fore shower to replace shower fixture.
To be fair Terry only an issue because your a giant of a man and not a yoga swami.
Would love to see pictures where you installed manifolds. I replace front water tank- if you do this search for facebook pages for "S/V Puesta del Sol" and "S/V Our Way Too" (deans step by step are great plus he has picks of the port main water tank- I have not tackled this one yet) - DO NOT BUY TANK BUILT TO ORIGINAL SPECS
I am not planning to sail offshore so I removed the macerator when I replace holding tank and capped the through hull
Was tempted to replace gray pipes mostly "scared" to replace the rear head pipes and the forward shower head. Plus winter was coming to a close and sailing calls over makeovers
I am not planning to sail offshore so I removed the macerator when I replace holding tank and capped the through hull
Was tempted to replace gray pipes mostly "scared" to replace the rear head pipes and the forward shower head. Plus winter was coming to a close and sailing calls over makeovers