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Ouick Member Query...

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Rick D, Jan 9, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    6,075 posts, 623 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    You know me; I don't make this stuff up. ;^)

    Minnesota by FAR. LA not even close.

    http://phoenix.about.com/od/lakes/fl/Arizona-Has-More-Boats-Per-Capita.htm
     


  2. rgranger

    rgranger

    Joined Jan 19, 2010
    3,668 posts, 264 likes
    Hunter 26, Hobie 16 26
    US Smith Mountain Lake
  3. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    3,053 posts, 490 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Sumter, SC Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC
    Jackdaw is talking about recreational boats. Alligator-hunting boats don't count.
     


  4. Full Circle 473

    Full Circle 473

    Joined Dec 29, 2015
    33 posts, 0 likes
    Beneteau 473
    US Pacific Northwest Mukilteo WA
    In Washington State, Unlike a car, it is not illegal for passengers to possess alcohol in a boat. However, the operator of the vessel is prohibited from having an open container of alcohol in their possession while the vessel is being operated, including an open container sitting in the operator's cup holder.
     


  5. Rick D

    Rick D

    Joined Jun 14, 2008
    6,032 posts, 46 likes
    Hunter Legend 40.5
    US Long Beach, Shoreline Marina, CA
    Well, talk about thread drift :biggrin:Update: the vehicular code is proposed to be amended to include the use of marijuana given California's new "legality" law. However, it spilled over into boats, if you'll forgive the pun. So, the timeline is: February 17th for bills to be introduced. There may be more. This one is fresh, so there has not been discussion with the author. Clearly, the image being addressed is the drunk jet-skier running over swimmers, rather than the lumbering 30' sailboat. However, they are the same in the present language. We'll see where this goes. Thanks for the location information and actually, the opinions about the worth or not of the proposal are also helpful. :clap:
     


  6. Biobob Catalina 27

    Biobob Catalina 27

    Joined Dec 25, 2014
    52 posts, 4 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Pasadena, Md
    Richard, I was going to ask - of what are you speaking "light cocktail", but I was then reminded of the watered down beverages sold in restaurants, it is unlikely that anything made at my bar at home would be considered "light", but then, I am also extremely opposed to any format of DUI or BUI. At home with no more outings, what is consumed is consumed!
     


  7. Rick D

    Rick D

    Joined Jun 14, 2008
    6,032 posts, 46 likes
    Hunter Legend 40.5
    US Long Beach, Shoreline Marina, CA
    Oh, I forgot to mention that the California legislature is expected to generate 2500 new pieces of legislation this year. Geesh... that's why California has to have it's own boater advocacy organization and its contract lobbying firm. I can guarantee there will be several more pieces affecting boats out of that pile. RBOC=Recreational Boaters of California. Once again, thank you for your input and comments.
     


  8. rgranger

    rgranger

    Joined Jan 19, 2010
    3,668 posts, 264 likes
    Hunter 26, Hobie 16 26
    US Smith Mountain Lake
    Would that be a BWT (boating while toking)....? I can see @Kermit working on a T-shirt now.
     


    Rick D likes this.
  9. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    3,053 posts, 490 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Sumter, SC Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC

    Not a t-shirt but there's a song for everything.
     


    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
    kloudie1 and Rick D like this.
  10. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    4,815 posts, 157 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Rick;
    As a dealer and in personal life I have experienced so much. We can talk about this until the cow jumps over the moon. So let me speak from a personal standpoint.
    At Smith Mt. Lake, I use to help on the rescue boats many years ago. I was aboard when called to an accident with two bass boats at full speed in daylight with no obstruction hit head on. There were fatalities which involved both operators of the boats who had been drinking. One was dead. There were other injuries. I helped to pull out the dead body in the water. Once, friends of mine were killed in their pontoon boat from behind by a power boat driven by a drunk at night who tried to pin the operator was his son. Serving jail time for that one.
    My father who was in charge of major Army air field back in 1960 if I recall took me along into the Dismal Swamp to search for a downed plane. I saw the wreckage and of course bodies. Not a pretty site. The pilot had been drinking.
    There is an old saying for any boat operator. Do not drink if you are going to drive and that includes any type of boats regardless.
    As for Virginia, I concur the open container portion of the law in a recreational boat by anyone other than the boat operator is not really enforced. Rgranger and I know that lake oh too well.
     


  11. Maine Sail

    Maine Sail Moderator

    Joined Feb 6, 1998
    10,038 posts, 193 likes
    Canadian Sailcraft 36T
    US Casco Bay, ME

    In Maine the operator can not be legally under the influence, as defined by Maine's .08 BAC law, but I can not find any no open container law for a boats passengers or specific to the operator.

    There is no Maine law I know of prohibiting open container on a boat nor even preventing the captain from having some alcohol, provided they remain under the legal limits imposed by Maine law.

    We do have a vehicular open container law: 2112-A Open Container; Drinking in a vehicle prohibited, but no boating open container law that I know of or could find on Maine.gov..
     


  12. Daveinet

    Daveinet

    Joined Sep 20, 2014
    554 posts, 30 likes
    Rob Legg RL24
    US Chain O'Lakes
    But if I am on the shore and become impaired and the sober friend swings by to pick me up, the moment I touch the boat, I have broken the law?? The point is that the condition of safety has not changed, which makes the law unreasonable.
     


  13. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    487 posts, 68 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Oswego, NY
    If it is your boat, once you return to your boat you are in command and therefore the operator. So, yes you have broken the law.

    The confusion lies in the definition. In a car, the driver is the one in command of the car and is the operator of the car. On a vessel the person driving may or may not be in command. I think this distinction comes from commercial vessels. The captain of a cruise ship does not actually steer the ship, rather the captain gives directions and some junior officer or seaman executes the command, but the captain is responsible and is the operator. Remember Joe Hazelwood and the Exxon Valdez.

    It is not uncommon for we recreational sailors to let kids and guests steer the boat while in a safe place. In doing so, we do not relinquish command of the boat, just the steering duties. I would not trust a young child or a inexperienced guest to make navigational decisions or operational decisions, but I do let them steer when we are a safe distance from any danger and I continue to supervise their actions to ensure safe operations. I am still in command of the vessel but not driving.
     


  14. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    4,685 posts, 239 likes
    MacGregor 25
    US Tucson, AZ/Puerto Penasco, MX
    I'd say "no", as long as your sober friend remains at the wheel.

    I propose we make a law banning unreasonable laws. :biggrin:
     


  15. Maine Sail

    Maine Sail Moderator

    Joined Feb 6, 1998
    10,038 posts, 193 likes
    Canadian Sailcraft 36T
    US Casco Bay, ME

    Let's not forget the rather disgusting California "abuse of power" case of Dinius vs. Bismark where Dinius, an on-board guest, had been standing at the helm at the moment when Bismark ran them over from behind, at night.

    It was Dinius who was charged with manslaughter not the vessels owner because Dinius was considered the operator at the time of the incident under California law which is adapted from vehicular standards of "operator".. Dinius was not the owner of the vessel and the vessel owner was never charged even though he was physically on-board....

    The court interprets things in odd ways at times...
     


  16. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    487 posts, 68 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Oswego, NY
    It also depends on jurisdiction. As I recall the Dinius v Bismark case it was on a lake that was within the state's boundaries, so state laws would apply. Different interpretations may come from Federal courts in waters governed by Federal laws.

    One Federal definition of "Owner or Operator" comes from 33 CFR 101.105 - Definitions.

    Owner or operator means any person or entity that owns, or maintains operational control over, any facility, vessel, or OCS facilitysubject to this subchapter. This includes a towing vessel that has operational control of an unmanned vessel when the unmanned vessel is attached to the towing vessel and a facility that has operational control of an unmanned vessel when the unmanned vessel is not attached to a towing vessel and is moored to the facility; attachment begins with the securing of the first mooring line and ends with the casting-off of the last mooring line.

    46 U.S. Code § 2302 - Penalties for negligent operations and interfering with safe operation covers the penalties for being under the influence of alcohol.

    (a) A person operating a vessel in a negligent manner or interfering with the safe operation of a vessel, so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of a person is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 in the case of a recreational vessel, or $25,000 in the case of any other vessel.

    (b) A person operating a vessel in a grossly negligent manner that endangers the life, limb, or property of a person commits a class A misdemeanor.

    (c)An individual who is under the influence of alcohol, or a dangerous drug in violation of a law of the United States when operating a vessel, as determined under standards prescribed by the Secretary by regulation—

    (1) is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000; or
    (2) commits a class A misdemeanor.
     


  17. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    3,434 posts, 263 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    Dlochner; You are conflating commercial vessel law with that which applies to recreational boaters. Unless the boater is operating under a merchant mariner license.
     


  18. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    3,434 posts, 263 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    Crazy Dave;
    SML at least WAS the craziest boater Dodge City circus on the east coast when last I visited and would be the first thing anyone would point to as in need of legal remedy. But as you note it was entirely a mobo problem. I can remember standing on the deck of a lovely waterfront home and being unable to carry on a conversation with a friend because of the noise being generated by the unmuffled yahoo boaters and jet skis speeding past the shoreline. The place was a living example of what happens to a scenic waterway when too many clueless boaters show up with the floating version of a muscle-car and let er rip! Then there were those certain operations renting powerboats and jets skis to credit-card captains and unleasing them upon the lake. Bad behaviors and questionable commercial Marina business practices on lakes and coastal rivers are largely to blame for so many boating laws. Some good, and many just a ham-handed attempt to solve a local problem with a law that gets applied inappropriately to all state boaters. Virginia boating law is a great example of the latter. Most of the over-reach was borne of SML. Just saying.
     


    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  19. rgranger

    rgranger

    Joined Jan 19, 2010
    3,668 posts, 264 likes
    Hunter 26, Hobie 16 26
    US Smith Mountain Lake
    Now THAT..... was funny.
     


  20. sailnewbie

    sailnewbie

    Joined Feb 13, 2016
    543 posts, 38 likes
    macgreggor venture 224
    us athens ohio ohio river
    Certainly dont need more laws just enforce the ones we have and that goes way beyond just boating!
     



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