Odor Problem

[Ward H]

@Peggie Hall HeadMistress
Twice we have been hit with a very foul odor from the head. Once when filling the toilet with water and once when flushing. Using the head for pee only. Fresh water fill only.

Here's some history:
This is our first season with our 93 C30.
The holding tank was pumped out during the sea trial when we bought the boat.
The surveyor identified the toilet as an old PAR/Jabsco. The pump leaked, he recommended replacing. I replaced it before launch this spring.

We had been filling the bowl with fresh water from a jug. This had worked well.

I pumped out the holding tank once late June. I was getting fuel and there is free pump out service at the dock so I took advantage.

Then last weekend I had finally fixed the leaking spigot so I tried the "filling the sink with fresh water and using that to flush the bowl" trick. The sink drain was already T'd into the head water intake line.
I tested it, seemed to work well. It flushed some black flakes from the rim of the bowl so I figured it would work better/easier than just dumping water into the bowl.

Then the Admiral and I went sailing for the day. I used the head, no problem.
She needed to pee and I hadn't showed her how to fill the bowl so I went to the head and filled the sink, then used that water to fill the bowl. For some reason this caused the foulest stink to come out of the bowl. While I was quickly opening every hatch and port, the Admiral was gagging in the cockpit from the fumes coming from the cabin. That ended our day of sailing.

Thinking the odor came from the old, probably original toilet, I installed the Raritan Sea Era QC fresh water flush toilet. Replaced all associated water hoses and discharge hose to the holding tank.

I flushed it 3-4 times. No odor. Great, time to go sailing.

While sailing yesterday I used the new toilet for the first time. No problem.
When it was the Admiral's turn I showed her how to fill the bowl with water prior. Then how to flush. When she flushed we again got hit with that same awful stench.

The smell is similar to a low tide type of smell, rather than a sewer smell. It isn't the same smell we had when we had the leaking macerator and I removed it or the smell we got from the hot water lines before we flushed them.

I also did't get any noticeable smell when changing the discharge hose between the toilet and holding tank.

I've treated the fresh water tanks (2) with bleach as recommended by your book, when I filled them and again while I was installing the new toilet.

What's really confusing me about this issue is:
1. When I used the fresh water in the sink to fill the toilet, the water in the sink didn't smell. Only when I pumped it into the head did the smell hit.
2. When replacing the discharge hose between holding tank and toilet I got no smell from the holding tank.

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Sounds like there's some dead and decaying animal sea life trapped in the rim of the bowl or maybe in the head intake line or even the sink drain line. It most likely got sucked in one of the last times anyone used sea water to flush the toilet. Run a bucket of water to which you've added a quart of distilled white vinegar through the toilet...followed by about a pint of water to which you've added about 4 oz of Raritan C.P. Cleans Potties...wait several hours before using the toilet again...repeat with C.P. if necessary.

But I think you have even bigger problems than you realize: Only toilets designed to use sea water should be connected to the sink drain line. The Raritan SeaEra QC Seaera_QC-promo.pdf is designed to use pressurized water from the boat's fresh water system. Toilets designed to use pressurized fresh water don't have an intake pump...The flush water inlet line is connected to the nearest cold water line--typically the cold water line to the head sink. A solenoid valve opens and closes like a faucet supply flush water to the bowl (the boat's fresh water pump must be on, btw). So if you connected the intake line to the sink drain instead of a fresh water line, gravity is the only thing supplying any water from the sink to the toilet.
Drawing #4 in the owners manual clearly indicates that the flush water intake line be connected to a fresh water line
Raritan SeaEraQC owners manual

So in addition to solving your odor problem, you also need re-install the flush water supply to the toilet correctly. If need help understanding how to do that, give Raritan tech support a call: 800-352-5630

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[kloudie1]

Holding tank vent hose (the one that goes to the stanchion) leaking gas into head space ?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I don't think so Claude. The whole head compartment would stink whether the toilet is being flushed or not if that were the source. Besides, he says it isn't a "sewer" odor, but more like low tide at the beach...that points to decaying sea life.

--Peggie

 

[Ward H]

Sounds like there's some dead and decaying animal sea life trapped in the rim of the bowl or maybe in the head intake line or even the sink drain line.

This is what I thought the first time we had the smell. I remembered a post or reading in your book about this possibility so to eliminate it I replaced the original toilet with the Raritan Sea Era QC Pressurized Fresh Water toilet. (I already had planned and had bought the Sea Era QC. Just had not gotten around to installing it.)

The Raritan SeaEra QC Seaera_QC-promo.pdf is designed to use pressurized water from the boat's fresh water system.

Correct. That is the reason for choosing that toilet.

Drawing #4 in the owners manual clearly indicates that the flush water intake line be connected to a fresh water line

My connections match Drawing #4. I put a T hose barb in the cold fresh water supply to the sink. Between the sink and the toilet solenoid I installed a fresh water strainer and shut off valve as recommended in the instructions at the top of page 8.

That's why I'm stumped.

Holding tank vent hose (the one that goes to the stanchion) leaking gas into head space ?

I can see how this might happen. Maybe conditions were just right to push whatever is rotting in the vent hose out the vent and into the open port in the head.
I'll check that next.

Thanks

I was still typing/proofing this when Peggie replied. Correct, it is more a low tide smell than sewer smell.

 

[All U Get]

We had a Catalina 30 and spent a lot of time cleaning the head and then discovered the drain in the sole to the bilge was the culprit. That and under the vee berth.

 

[jssailem]

Is this what they might call..
"Eau de toilette" problem?

Perhaps you just need to follow Brad's advice.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

My connections match Drawing #4. I put a T hose barb in the cold fresh water supply to the sink. Between the sink and the toilet solenoid I installed a fresh water strainer and shut off valve as recommended in the instructions at the top of page 8.

Then the Admiral and I went sailing for the day. I used the head, no problem.She needed to pee and I hadn't showed her how to fill the bowl so I went to the head and filled the sink,

(...along with several other references to filling the sink to use the toilet).

It was all those references to filling the sink to use the toilet that misled me into thinking you'd plumbed the toilet intake line to it...I'm very relieved to learn you didn't!
So if the toilet is plumbed correctly, why are you filling the sink to add water to the toilet ahead of use (which btw, is only necessary ahead of solids), and how is the water in the sink getting into the toilet bowl??? If you went with just the standard "momentary push button," just running a faucet to fill a cup a couple of times would be a lot easier. You might want to consider replacing the push button switch with either the Smart Panel or the "multi-function momentary control"...both have flush options that include letting you add water to the bowl ahead of use and "dry" flush. All the flush options are described on p.2 of the SeaEra QC promo sheet. Seaera_QC-promo.pdf
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Ron20324]

I have a clear, reinforced, hose from the Jabsco pump to the bowl intake. Over time, that hose gets a black coating that can build up. With use, the black can flake off and it may take days of use to get it all out of the hose and through the bowl. Years ago I took the forum advice and tee'd off the sink drain. Now I can pump vinegar and other cleaners through ALL the head plumbing. /// I recall someone who had a blockage and found a small fish stuck in his intake line, so maybe the OP's problem, too?

 

[Ward H]

So if the toilet is plumbed correctly, why are you filling the sink to add water to the toilet ahead of use (which btw, is only necessary ahead of solids), and how is the water in the sink getting into the toilet bowl???

Sorry for the poor explanation. I screwed up explaining how I plumbed the fresh water supply to the new toilet.

Between the sink and the toilet solenoid

should have read "Between the T hose barb and the toilet solenoid"

The new toilet water supply is only connected to the boats pressurized fresh water system. There is no way for seawater to enter the new toilet.

Edit: I have the momentary contact multi function control for the toilet.

I think my next step will be to try at least two flushings of the holding tank with fresh water to get rid of all the seawater in the tank. We don't have a large tidal flow at our marina and there is a lot of wetland around us so I imagine there are a lot of little salt water creatures brought in when I used the seawater intake for the old head.
After I flush out the holding tank real good I'll use the Raritan KO holding tank treatment.

I recall someone who had a blockage and found a small fish stuck in his intake line, so maybe the OP's problem, too?

I'm now thinking along this line. That I flushed stagnant seawater into the holding tank and a partially plugged vent line caused pressure to build in the tank. When I dry flushed the toilet the pressure in the tank caused a burp of stench to come out of the toilet.

discovered the drain in the sole to the bilge was the culprit.

Hadn't thought about that. The bilge smell is different than this problem but I can see how it allows the bilge smell to come up into the boat. I'll work harder on cleaning the bilge.


A separate question that may be related.
Does a film or scum of some sort cover the top of the contents of a holding tank? I ask because when the macerator leaked, it filled the bilge with about 3" of "water" covered by a thick, white, semi solid scum or film.

 

[Ron20324]

... I imagine there are a lot of little salt water creatures brought in when I used the seawater intake for the old head.

"""Yeah, when I swap out my speed paddlewheel and/or put it back in, you'd be surprised at what gushed into the boat. I put the impeller back in on Friday, but Saturday morning it did not work for a mile or two. I guess the mud dawbers and shrimp jammed the padwheel in that short time. We have alot of stuff in the water from the dam release, and it can get sucked into the bowl rim. too.""

.....Does a film or scum of some sort cover the top of the contents of a holding tank? I ask because when the macerator leaked, it filled the bilge with about 3" of "water" covered by a thick, white, semi solid scum or film.

Probably the fats in the food we eat floating to the top. What did you have for dinner

 

[Ward H]

I just got off the phone with Raritan technical support. We reviewed how my old toilet was plumbed and how the new Raritan toilet is plumbed. I explained about getting the foul odor.

He said most likely the holding tank vent line is plugged. When flushing the toilet, pressure builds in the tank and can push air back into the toilet, especially when dry flushing.

He said best practice was to put a bend in the discharge hose to create a trap like on home sink drains but if that was not practical flushing the holding tank a couple of times, clearing the clogged vent line and some of the KO Holding Tank treatment should help to solve the problem.

Probably the fats in the food we eat floating to the top. What did you have for dinner

At first I thought you were joking but it does make sense, although I'll blame it on the PO. He was full of crap.

 

[jssailem]

clearing the clogged vent line

That is a task I always do when visiting the pump out. Our pump out has a fresh water hose that fits the vent. I just stick it in and run water into the vent line, into the holding tank while sucking out the tank. Couple of months back the water line was turned off. I sucked the tank empty but could not do my regular flush procedure. I paid for it about 2 weeks later when there was a bad smell in the head.
Hope your new set up prevents the re-occurrence.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

He said best practice was to put a bend in the discharge hose to create a trap like on home sink drains but if that was not practical flushing the holding tank a couple of times, clearing the clogged vent line and some of the KO Holding Tank treatment should help to solve the problem.

I can't believe anyone in Raritan tech support who's worked there longer than 15 minutes would tell you to do any of that..only explanation is a new hire who needs a lot more training (and I will forward your report of his advice to the tech support supervisor).

A "trap" in the toilet discharge line would leave waste sitting in the hose to permeate i. And flushing out the holding tank--which btw would be impossible if the tank vent is blocked--will only pressurize the system because air displaced by the water can't escape through a blocked vent --will never clear a vent line blockage. You've said you have my book...instructions for clearing a blocked vent are on page 42. Catalina used to run all vent lines into a rail stanchion...if that's true of your boat, any vent blockage is likely to be the holes in/at the stanchion.
All that said, if you can pump out the tank completely, the tank vent isn't blocked...'cuz if it were, the pumpout would pull a vacuum that wouldn't allow it pull out more than a gallon or two. A particularly strong pumpout pulling against a blocked tank vent can even implode a tank.

(And btw, you still haven't told me why you fill the sink to use the toilet).

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

 

[Ward H]

(And btw, you still haven't told me why you fill the sink to use the toilet).

Peggie,
I think you missed Post #10 where I explained how I misspoke in Post #5. Sorry for the confusion.
To clarify, I have the Raritan Sea Era QC Pressurized Fresh Water connected to the boats pressurized fresh water system as per Figure #4 of the instructions for that toilet. I do not fill the sink to use the toilet.

Yeah, I still have the stupid stanchion vent for the holding tank. I reread page 42 and will make sure the vent is clear before flushing out the tank.
I do plan on moving the vent to a mushroom thru hull, as I've seen you have suggest several times, in the near future.
And I will follow ( @jssailem ) John's lead and flush out the vent each time I pump out the holding tank.

As far as the tech, goes he didn't tell me that flushing the tank would clear the vent, if that is what you got out of my text.
I explained to him I was trying to find the cause for the stench. I asked if air from the holding tank could back up into the toilet during a dry flush. He said yes, if the vent was clogged the tank would pressurize during the flush and at the end of the dry flush the pressure could cause air to go back into the toilet.
He said that flushing the tank, clearing the clogged vent line and using KO should eliminate any holding tank odor. Actually, I asked if those actions would eliminate the odor and he said yes, flushing the sea water out of the tank, unclogging the vent, if clogged and using KO should eliminate the odor.

Maybe I misunderstood about the trap in the discharge line. Did he mean a siphon vent in a loop? He did say it would act similar to a sink trap to block air moving from the tank to the toilet.

If I got it all wrong, I can call back.

 

[jssailem]

If I understand correctly the theory of the marine toilet, it is different than our home systems. One of the keys is the "joker valve". It opens pumping stuff out towards the holding tank and closes to stop odor and effluent from returning. Peggie told me to orient my hose from the joker valve up to above the level of the holding tank. So that once the waste has been pumped up the hose to the level above the holding tank it flows down hill and gravity will take care of moving the waste to the tank. This sounded so sensible. She said the pump is designed to pump waste 4ft vertical lift.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Yeah, I still have the stupid stanchion vent for the holding tank. I reread page 42 and will make sure the vent is clear before flushing out the tank.
I do plan on moving the vent to a mushroom thru hull, as I've seen you have suggest several times, in the near future.
And I will follow ( @jssailem ) John's lead and flush out the vent each time I pump out the holding tank.

That would be a good time to "upgrade" to a 1" vent line....easy to do, thanks to a li'l gadget called the Uniseal UNISEAL
You'd use a 1" "bulkhead" thru-hull instead of a "vent" thru-hull.
--Peggie

 

[JRT]

@Ward H how did this work out? I'm thinking of converting our 2008 Raritan PHII to fresh water pressurized since there seems to be a conversion kit to do it.

 

[Ward H]

@JRT
The Raritan Sea Era QC pressurized fresh water flush works great. My wife loves the simplicity of the push button flush. Using fresh water helps to keep the odors out of the head from stale bay water.
Being on a fresh water lake, that may not be as important to you.

I did the new 1" vent and that did help to reduce the odor in the boat. Not hard to do at all. the Uniseal worked like a champ.

 

[JRT]

I'm not sure yet, we had an odor this Sunday but went away. The smell was like lake water. Just curious, as long as everything works well now won't worry, but if anything has to be replaced I'll probably just get the conversion kit.