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ODay 20 vs Mariner 2+2 which is faster

Discussion in 'Day Sailers' started by Mcewan007, Jul 18, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Mcewan007

    Mcewan007

    Joined Jul 18, 2018
    3 posts, 1 likes
    ODay 20
    CA Ottawa
    hi all, I’m a new sailor looking to buy my first keelboat. Most of my sailing has been on Hobie cats and small dinghies (albacore and wayfarers) and I’ve grinded winches on a few races aboard a C&C 27.

    I’m looking to buy a small keelboat for the times I take out the family or friends and in the spring and fall when it’s too cold to get wet on a cat. I’ve found two boats that just happens to be ODays in kijiji, ones Mariner and one is a 20. From what I’ve read so far either would fit what I’m looking for (easily launched, easy to single hand and reasonably uncomplicated) but I keep reading that the Mariner is “fast”. Does anyone have any input as to whether the Mariner is significantly faster or more fun than the 20? I’m going to get a chance to sail the 20 but the Mariner is on the hard. The Mariner I’m looking at is cheap but it needs a trailer and outboard and doesn’t appear to be in as good condition as the 20 but if it’s significantly more fun it may be the way to go. Thoughts from anyone?

    I won’t even ask about the 240 that I may look at :)
     


  2. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,735 posts, 1,167 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    Welcome @Mcewan007,
    You have chosen wisely already by becoming a member of Sailboatowners, to ask your questions on our forum. I have no doubt, you will make the right decision as to which boat to get because historically, you have demonstrated already that you make good decisions so far.
    I own a Mariner, but I can't answer your question, I'm sorry. I do, however, have a membership with the Mariner Class Association ( http://www.usmariner.org ). They are an active, enthusiastic and generous group of sailors who absolutely love their little boats. Check them out and search through their forum, I'm not sure non-members can get to it ( https://mariner.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=2153&club_id=953644 ).

    I don't actually think you will find a comparison, but you will get a good sense of the Mariner's performance from them. They do a lot of class racing and some of them race outside their class, as well.

    A question, if you never find the answer to this question, how much does it matter if you enjoy the performance of either boat your sailing? I know nothing at all about the O'Day 20. I have never seen one outside of pictures and the truth is, I know very little about the Mariner, mine is still waiting for me to get a chance to repaint the centerboard and launched her for the first time.

    The Mariner Class Association Forum has kept me very excited about my choice of boats and this forum has reawakened my intense desire to go sailing.
    All else being equal, I think the Mariner is a lot prettier. She has a bigger cockpit to accomidate friends and there is a lot of support around her, and the Mariner is still being built by Stuart Marine out of Maine.
    Here is a link to some videos and promotional materials from the Association site http://www.usmariner.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=953644&module_id=45453

    Oh yeah, on their forum, I remember reading one owner's account of an open class long distance race he won. He finished among 30 footers and afterwards, at the dinner, he overheard another crew talking at a nearby table, "... and everytime I turned around, there was that damned little sailboat."
    I love that storie.

    I hope you are happy with your choice, I'm certain you can't make a wrong decision here, but I hope to run into you as a new member of the Mariner's Association soon.

    - Will (Dragonfly, hull #2632)
     


  3. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    422 posts, 173 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
    Both O'Days have on Sail Area / Displacement ratios that are quite a bit less than the boats you mentioned. Of course, there are many other factors, but based solely on SA/D, the both Odays will be less sporty than the smaller boats that you have experienced, with the Mariner being slightly better than the 20. See sailboatdata.com.

    OTH, PHRF ratings from http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps have the 20 being slightly faster than the Mariner. The PHRF handicap on the C&C27 is lower than the two Odays, even though its SA/D is also lower, proving that the numbers are just clues.

    Now to my personal opinion: Sail the 20 and if you like it, buy it. At this stage of your sailing ownership journey, don't buy any boat that you know needs at least two very expensive accessories and/or that you can't take a test sail.

    One of the reasons that I bought a Mariner was the long cockpit benches, but I have reached the opinion that the boat is most fun with two people or solo. More than two people and it gets a bit crowded for my taste.
     


    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
    Mcewan007 likes this.
  4. Mcewan007

    Mcewan007

    Joined Jul 18, 2018
    3 posts, 1 likes
    ODay 20
    CA Ottawa
    Thanks for the reply, that’s probably sensible advice. I actually think the guy selling the Mariner may have just bought it earlier this year solely for the trailer and outboard and now he’s trying to get rid of the boat. I need a trailer to launch at the beginning of the year and haul out at the end of the year but other than that it will be on a mooring ball at the dinghy club I belong to all. I’d probably get an electric trolling motor just for grabbing the mooring ball, it won’t be going any long distances.

    I think my emphasis on speed may have been overstated, what i meant was is the Mariner more lively and fun. As they say with cars, it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Thanks again,
     


  5. Maine Sail

    Maine Sail Moderator

    Joined Feb 6, 1998
    10,686 posts, 517 likes
    Canadian Sailcraft 36T
    US Casco Bay, ME
    When I was a kid we owned and raced multiple Rhodes 19's, a classic Mariner 2+2 (identical hull to the Rhodes 19), and an O'day 22, for a very short period of time. I have also sailed quite a bit on the original O'day 20. The Mariner is a much better sailing boat than the O'day 20 or the 22. The O'day 20 has slightly more room below but a smaller cockpit.
     


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  6. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    422 posts, 173 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
    I went on kijiji and found the Mariner you are considering; I didn't see the 20. Based on the photos, that Mariner appears to be in better shape than mine was when I bought it. The big difference is that I actually sailed it before I agreed to buy it. It still looks the same to the casual observer. All the improvements that I've made are convenience/reliability/performance-related; I'll let the next owner worry about the cosmetics.
    Oh, and mine came with a trailer, which is a big factor. It saves me a lot of money to keep it on the hard at the marina vs. in a slip. And it saves me a lot of worry, especially during/after nasty storms.
     


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  7. Brian S

    Brian S

    Joined Nov 9, 2012
    2,335 posts, 146 likes
    Oday 192
    US Lake Nockamixon
    According to the poorly maintained Portsmouth rating system, the O'day 20 is a 101.7, and the Mariner is a 102.1. So, based on rating, the O'day 20 is very slightly faster, and probably not really enough to make a difference.

    I know when it comes to the Laser vs. the Force 5, as for ratings, the Laser is faster, but a well-sailed Force 5 beats Lasers often.
     


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  8. LANCE ON CLOUD NINE

    LANCE ON CLOUD NINE

    Joined Mar 28, 2007
    625 posts, 15 likes
    Oday 23
    US Anna Maria Isl.
    another thing that might make a difference in your decision...is, I believe (but am not positive) the centerboard Mariner could be pulled up on a beach or soft shore if needed. this to me would offer all kinds of convenience over a 20.
     


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  9. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,735 posts, 1,167 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    [​IMG]
    Mariner 19 2+2 CBs beached for picnic on Percy Priest Lake.

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     


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  10. Mcewan007

    Mcewan007

    Joined Jul 18, 2018
    3 posts, 1 likes
    ODay 20
    CA Ottawa
    Thanks everyone for your replies, the Mariner looks like a great lively boat. The one I saw was in decent condition for its age. I found the 20 was too much in the middle, not quite big enough to weekend on. In the end I didn’t buy either. I picked up a Siren 17 this week. It has a big cockpit (not as big as the Mariner) and small cuddy similar to the Mariner but it’s light enough to tow behind a compact car. the one I bought is in phenomenal condition. Thanks again for all the replies
     


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  11. bgstar19

    bgstar19

    Joined Jul 25, 2018
    7 posts, 0 likes
    O'day 19 Weekender
    US Narragansett Bay
    Anyone know how a O'Day 19 Weekender would compare with the O'Day 20 and the O'Day Mariner 2+2?
    Just purchased a 1982 '19 (which has the shorter 23' 8" mast, similar to the O'Day 192 mast), I cannot find any PHRF rating info on it.
     


  12. Brian S

    Brian S

    Joined Nov 9, 2012
    2,335 posts, 146 likes
    Oday 192
    US Lake Nockamixon
    These boats are too short for PHRF; I believe it starts at 20'. Also, bigger boats tend to race PHRF anyway. You'd do better to compare Portsmouth handicap numbers.

    O'day 19: 95.2
    O'day 192: 98.3
    O'day 20: 101.7
    Mariner 19: 102.1

    O'day 19 should be the faster boat of the lot.

    Just for giggles, I looked up displacement specs, sail area specs, and sail area to displacement specs:

    O 19: 2040# - 179 ft. sq. - 17.85
    O 192: 1400# - 151 ft. sq. - 19.35
    O 20: 1600# - 175 ft. sq. - 20.51
    M 19: 1430# - 184 ft. sq. - 23.24

    Based on numbers, the O'day 19 looks kinda slow with a greater displacement and low SA/D, but fastest Portsmouth. The Mariner is comparatively light (the 2+2 is probably heavier) and has a lot of sail area, bigger SA/D, but still has a slower Portsmouth rating.

    I can tell you that in lighter wind on a reach, a 192 is faster than a Catalina 22 and a Beneteau First 235. I've caught that First 235 and passed it DDW. Not so much on a beat with more wind, when the bigger boat's LWL and better pointing makes a big difference.
     


  13. bgstar19

    bgstar19

    Joined Jul 25, 2018
    7 posts, 0 likes
    O'day 19 Weekender
    US Narragansett Bay
    Hey Brian S,
    Thanks for your feedback.

    The displacement figures published for the O'day 19 Weekender are a bit of a misnomer, in that the 2040 lb displacement weight published includes 640 lbs for 4 crew (at 160 lbs each); with an actual non-crewed displacement weight of 1400 lb. and 300 lbs of ballast (its centerboard has a listed weight of 50 lbs, I'm not sure if this 50 lbs is part of the 300 lb ballast figure or not).

    Also, I have a suspicion that the 95.2 Portsmouth number is based on the earlier 1979-1981 model '19's which have a taller 26' 3" mast and carries the full 179 sq ft of sail you noted above. I believe my 1982 model '19 carries about 164 sq ft of sail.
     


  14. bgstar19

    bgstar19

    Joined Jul 25, 2018
    7 posts, 0 likes
    O'day 19 Weekender
    US Narragansett Bay
    Brian S,

    How do you like your O'day 192?
    That is the boat I had been looking to buy, with its cabin layout that's more accommodating for overnighting.
    Unfortunately there were no '192's for sale in my area that a carpenter could afford.
     


  15. Brian S

    Brian S

    Joined Nov 9, 2012
    2,335 posts, 146 likes
    Oday 192
    US Lake Nockamixon
    I love my 192. It's a great little boat for singlehanding, and on a smaller inland lake. It's simple to rig and sail, and I get the most out of her with an adjustable topping lift and vang so I can vang sheet. I would like to have a traveler so I could point a little better in lighter air, but I'd have to sacrifice a lot to rig it up. I just spent the night on Saturday so I could be up at a very unhealthy hour to support a triathlon swim. I have a Magma grill on board for dinner, and a small butane single burner stove which I used to make coffee at that ungodly hour. It's just small enough that I can trailer her the mostly flat 15 miles back and forth from the house with my Subaru Forester. I'd still like to have more tow capacity, but honestly it's not likely I'd really take a week long vacation on the Chesapeake. It's more of a fantasy. Cockpit is big enough for visitors, long enough to stretch out on the seats for a nap. The ergonomics of the seats and coaming back are very, very nice, and the coaming is angled so you can sit on it and lean back on lifelines when it's windier. I've had it 5 years and haven't seriously considered even 3-foot-itis, though a 222 or 240 might be nice to have.
     


  16. bgstar19

    bgstar19

    Joined Jul 25, 2018
    7 posts, 0 likes
    O'day 19 Weekender
    US Narragansett Bay
    Hey Brian S,
    Do you know what year of manufacture the O'day 19's were that generated the data used to calculate a Portsmouth number of 95.2 you had noted above? I'm trying to determine if they were the tall mast model (1979 - 1981), or the shorter mast model like mine.
     


  17. Brian S

    Brian S

    Joined Nov 9, 2012
    2,335 posts, 146 likes
    Oday 192
    US Lake Nockamixon
    BgStar, I wasn't aware of a mast change on the 19, based on Sailboatdata.com. Sunbird might know, and Rudy at D&R Marine probably knows. Perhaps Dwyer Mast also has 2 sets of specifications.

    As for which (if there were 2 configs) was used to generate Portsmouth numbers, I also have no idea. My understanding of the Portsmouth rating system is that it has been neglected for years, and hasn't been updated, so trying to sort out some detail like that wouldn't be easy. If you were racing it a lot, and began to see a discrepancy in numbers, with the agreement of your club you could probably adjust the rating.
     



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