News flash: cool fast boats sell.

[Jackdaw]

J/Boats and apparently Pogo sell to a very narrow market, those interested in competing at a high level with deep pockets. That's not most of us. Most of us sail older boats that were once competitive and are now affordable.

The boating market is based on discretionary income, supporting a boat is low on the list when compared to food, housing, retirement savings, college savings, etc. Those who can afford a $300K boat are relatively few.

It only took 25 years of inflation, depreciation, and a negligent owner for me to afford the boat I saw in the late 1990s that I fell in love with. And my income was well above the national median income.

I get all that, but hang on, if you’re not buying, NOBODY is selling to you. You’re not in the market. The builder had to build for who will buy. They know that 80% of the existing boat owners will never buy a new boat. They pretty much ignore that part.

 

[dlochner]

A question that hasn't been asked, is how well do these sailboats age?

80s and 90s vintage "racers" have aged well. There is an aftermarket for used boats of this vintage. They make good club racers and good coastal cruisers.

The hot racer boat market is also a bit fickle and emotion driven. Once a company moves in to the market, as J/Boats did, as C&C once did, and as Pogo seems to be trying to do, there is little room for other companies. Catalina tried to move into the marked with the Capri 25 and Capri 22 to challenge the J24 and J22, but was unsuccessful. Amongst racers there is a hierarchy of brands, Catalina and Hunter are not at the top of that hierarchy. If you doubt that, go visit Sailing Anarchy and boast about the performance of your Hunter 27. I'll send the band-aides.

Our sport needs to make sailing fun and affordable. We need to make racing fun. In the current issue of Cruising World there is an article by Herb McCormick about sailing in the 40th Anniversary J24 Regatta. It is a short good read. They were on the line next to Ken Read, but they had a cooler full of beer and ice and I suspect Ken didn't. Herb and crew had a good time and finished middle of the fleet (or close to it) and I'm sure Ken Read finished higher. Both crews had fun, but I'd rather be on Herb's boat than Ken's.

 

[dlochner]

I get all that, but hang on, if you’re not buying, NOBODY is selling to you. You’re not in the market. The builder had to build for who will buy. They know that 80% of the existing boat owners will never buy a new boat. They pretty much ignore that part.

Jack, help me understand this. The title of the thread is "News flash: cool fast boats sell." But they only sell to 20% of the market? I suppose if you define the market as those who are going to buy $300K racing boats as the market, then that may be accurate. But the bigger market is for used boats that sail well that we ordinary middle class boaters can afford.

The glamor and glitz of the high end market is always fun to look at, but the future of the sport is at the other end of the economic spectrum. How do we keep and how do we include the ordinary person with a little disposable income to get into sailing and racing? The high end boats don't do that until they are really old and cheap.

 

[cb32863]

I think we in the US market tend to have blinders on when it comes to new boat manufacturers. So ingrained in our minds are the "Classic plastic" that looking beyond Hunter & Catalina, even for something new, is just not comprehensible for most US sailors. I would love a Pogo but I do not have the cash, there is also Seascape, Reacher, X-Yachts, G-Force, etc.. Beneteau is doing some cool new stuff too. Europe is doing a lot of cutting edge design and getting results. Seems the US market just wants to stay in the Carter administration as far as design is concerned. J-Boats excluded. Reacher and Seascape are actually reasonably priced as far as new boats are concerned.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jack, help me understand this. The title of the thread is "News flash: cool fast boats sell." But they only sell to 20% of the market? I suppose if you define the market as those who are going to buy $300K racing boats as the market, then that may be accurate. But the bigger market is for used boats that sail well that we ordinary middle class boaters can afford.

The glamor and glitz of the high end market is always fun to look at, but the future of the sport is at the other end of the economic spectrum. How do we keep and how do we include the ordinary person with a little disposable income to get into sailing and racing? The high end boats don't do that until they are really old and cheap.

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear. My point was that of 100% of currrent boat owners, only 20% will ever buy a new boat. That is the market the builders design and sell to. Its the only part that matters.

Everyone else keeps their current boat till they are out of the sport, or buy another used boat.

So if someone is in the 80% and don’t like the new designs, the builders don’t care. You raise a valid point, but a different question.

 

[weinie]

I want me a Pogo 30.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I think that Hunter would die for a new boat with a 2 year order book that they could crank out an example every three weeks.

I think that statement captures Jackdaw’s point well. If you’re in the 20% of boat buyers who’s interested in buying new, why would you look to get a new hunter that’s not really any more exciting than the used boats that the other 80% can buy for cheaper? Theyll sell a few but If you’re a manufacturer who needs to sell to that 20% you need to distinguish yourself and offer something that’s novel. A true performance cruiser is a good way to do that.

 

[LeeandRick]

What is the difference in the US market and the European market? Fuel prices and attitude. The $300K power boat market is doing very well here in the USA. Just come to Lake Havasu for a look see. If the market ever swings to sail in the US I think we would see some fantastic offerings and new start ups, but I'm not going to hold my breath Jack.

 

[JimInPB]

Pardon a silly question, but if cool fast boats sell so well, then how do you explain Gunboat going belly up? The G60 was the coolest, fastest sailboat I ever set foot on. The 55s were pretty slick too.

 

[weinie]

Pardon a silly question, but if cool fast boats sell so well, then how do you explain Gunboat going belly up? The G60 was the coolest, fastest sailboat I ever set foot on. The 55s were pretty slick too.

disruptive technology a little too disruptive coupled w/ bad publicity.

 

[dlochner]

What is the difference in the US market and the European market? Fuel prices and attitude. The $300K power boat market is doing very well here in the USA. Just come to Lake Havasu for a look see. If the market ever swings to sail in the US I think we would see some fantastic offerings and new start ups, but I'm not going to hold my breath Jack.

Those of us of a certain age, remember when this happened in the US. The combination of new "maintenance free" fiberglass technology, high inflation, and high fuel prices, spurred an explosion of small to medium boat builders in the US and Canada: O'Day, Hunter, Pearson, Catalina, Caliber, Cal, Pacific Seacraft, Sabre, Tartan, S2, Islander, San Juan, the list goes on.

Because of high inflation (5+%) the depreciation was offset by inflation. It was not uncommon to sell a used boat for close to the original purchase price.

Eventually the market became saturated, inflation and fuel prices eased, and the Feds instituted a Luxury Tax on boats over $100K, and money got tight for boat builders. The late 80s was a financially disastrous time for the sailboat industry with only a few survivors.

The industry also figured out that the margins in smaller 30' and under boats was small while the margin for larger more expensive boats was large. Production moved towards the larger more expensive boats, leaving those who might be able to afford a new 30 footer in the used boat market.

And those pesky GRF boats just don't have the common decency to rot away like the old wooden boats.

 

[Maine Sail]

Why don't we buy a new boat? Because with the money we saved we invested our money into a second home/ski place, something that actually appreciates in value.. (wink)

Oh and boats are only fast if you sail them fast. In last weeks race a Morris won due to some excellent tactical decisions. It beat three Bene 36.7's, a Melges 32R, IMX-40. Farr 43, Farr 30, 1D-35 and all the J-Boats.

 

[DougM]

In my opinion there are underlying reasons sailboats in general are a shrinking market. Millenials don't have the time or the disposable funds to buy any kind of a sailboat. The boats have gotten way too expensive. The lifestyle growing up has changed radically. Instead of being outdoors learning and enjoying activities like sailing (or even golf), kids have their eyes transfixed on computer screens and smartphones.
The emphasis on organized sports, while not all bad, eats into family time. Hence no family sailing, no days allocated to sailing school, etc. They cannot learn from the ground up.
When they do finally get out of school, they are buried in debt. If they are fortunate enough to have a good job, they end up tethered to their iphones 24-7. Perks like club memberships associated with management jobs have become nonexistent. Any activity that requires more than an hour is generally out of the realm of possibility.
As the result, the cruising boats become the norm after the age of maybe 60 when debts are paid, retirement is on the horizon, and there is finally time to enjoy life. By then its too late to learn the nuances of sailing, so boats that sell have to have all the bells, whistles, and creature comforts.

 

[Fast Ed]

You Need two boats! The racer cruiser has gone out of style and the market has bifurcated into racers and cruisers. This makes it difficult to race your cruiser, or to cruise your racer.

 

[dlochner]

You Need two boats! The racer cruiser has gone out of style and the market has bifurcated into racers and cruisers. This makes it difficult to race your cruiser, or to cruise your racer.

The market had bifurcated into racers and dock condos. New boats are often designed to be comfortable at the dock with shore power. Just look for handholds below deck in the newer boats. Nice sleek decks, again with few handholds, but with transoms that raise and lower with hydraulics.

 

[danm1]

Jackdaw is probably right as far as what it takes to compete in the new boat market, but I suspect the market for performance cruisers, in the U.S. at least, is smaller than we think and shrinking. I just sold a 35 year old Hunter 25.5 and I am shopping for a "performance cruiser" of the same vintage, which is all I can afford. I am also near retirement.
My boat was in good shape and advertised at progressively lower prices over the course of two seasons. I think a total of seven people may have looked at it. A couple of late teens who were thinking of moving up from dinghys and guys in their 50s-60s who had little sailing experience but mostly liked the concept. Not a single one of them had any idea of the costs of docking/mooring/winter storage and almost everyone interested walked when they found out. It's not just the price of the boat. Now that I am shopping for something larger I am adding up the additional ongoing maintenance costs and concluding that I should pay less than I planned. My son grew up around boats, and is a 29 year-old with a very good salary. He is still saving for a house or condo and I can't see him getting into boat ownership on his own for another ten or twenty years, if then. And he won't be looking at a $250,000+ purchase.
Long story short, if you are not already a die-hard older sailor or a yacht club baby, the numbers are insane.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I would be curious to know the demographics of the people buying the "cool, fast boats". I can look around at the buying habits here in the NY metro area and there is certainly no shortage of young, wealthy, adrenaline junky-type folks around here. You'd find the same in a lot of areas, like the DC Metro area, Boston, San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Chicago, Minneapolis ... we could go on. What is the profile of those buyers in Europe, and why does it not translate here? Perhaps sailing has an old, stodgy image that just doesn't attract new interest? Are buyers in the US with similar demographics attracted to other interests instead of sailing?
The other part of the equation ... are these boats essentially disposable after the initial buyer is through with it? Do racers/performance oriented sailors tend to ride their boats hard and "put away wet"? Will there be a secondary market for these boats or will secondary markets shun them for various reasons, such as lacking comfort, style, durability, etc. If there is no secondary market, how long will the trend last?

 

[jwing]

Here's what young, adrenaline junky-type folks (no need to be wealthy) think are cool, fast boats:

BTW - A kayak like that has no projects and needs absolutely no maintenance. Ride hard and put away wet is exactly what they are made for.

Sailing is for old farts like me.

 

[jssailem]

Looks like fun. Had a friend 70 plus years young who did that on the rivers of Washington. He would teach the young bucks how to ride the rapids and survive. He said it was no fun unless they were at stage 4PLUS.

 

[Love and Luck]

Along with a line of pure race boats and 4 other ‘cruisers’ between 30 and 50 feet, little Structures Pogo in France cranks out a new Pogo 36 every 3 three weeks. The backlog for the €250k boat is over 3 years. J/boats is also doing well enough. Why can’t other American builders figure out this code? The world has enough tubby cruisers that can’t get out of their own way. Performance sells.


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That's funny, I wasn't aware that Island Packet was having sales problems.