Registered users don't see ads

New sail legal?

Discussion in 'Racing' started by glaufman, Jul 9, 2018 at 5:47 PM. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    My club normally races one designs... 5 races per yet are designated "all boat" races where the cruisers like me get involved... There are no formal NOR (besides a published schedule) or SI ... Otherwise RRS apply...

    I recently was gifted a sail from someone's excess inventory... I sail an O'Day 23... The new Genny (I believe its from a j24) measures approximately 135%... And appears to be laminated material (Kevlar reinforced mylar?).

    I have been unable to find a class rule for O'Day 23 ... is anyone aware of a class assoc or class rules?

    Would this sail be legal in the absence of a rule restricting it?
     


  2. PaulK

    PaulK

    Joined Dec 1, 2009
    271 posts, 17 likes
    Tillotson Pearson J/36
    US Southport, CT
    The sail may not be class legal for an O'Day 23 if you were racing against other O'Day 23's, but if you're racing in an "all boat" race, you'll be using a handicap rating that should reflect the size of your "new" genoa. What you rate with the genoa is another question. Do you have a PHRF certificate? Going from a working jib to a 135% genoa might lower your handicap by 3 or 4 seconds per mile. A 150% genoa might change it by 4 to 6. If it's as low-key as it sounds, you might simply discuss it with the Race Committee and agree to a number that seems to make sense. According to my PHRF guidebook, the South Bay (NY) PHRF rating for the O'Day 23 is 252 with the standard jib. So maybe aim for something like 248 or 249 with the new jib? Sail fast in any case!
     


  3. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Thanks for the quick reply and good info Paul...
    Half the entries in these all-boat races wouldn't participate if they had to get rated, so the club doesn't handicap these races... (the race committee, right or wrong, believes it encourages participation more to give out more trophies to more different people, so each type of boat gets it's own class trophy: there's one and only one Bristol 24, one and only one Bayfield 25... that's one reason why I chose the O'Day 23, mine is the fifth at the club, so I get somewhat-real-competition without having to be married to racing every weekend like the one-designs...)
    It's more for bragging rights that I and a particular Catalina 22 go at it, as the only "fast-guys" that participate in every race, and to be listed as Club Chamption (Cruiser Division)...
    I did casually discuss it with the race chairman, he said not to worry about it, if a protest is brought we'd have to have a conversation about it, but in the interest of sportsmanship I'd rather not knowingly break the rules and just wait to see if someone protests or if I get away with it...

    Could the sail not be "class legal" if there is no "class rule"? In the absence of a class rule, what is the default?
    The way I see it: There's no rule prohibiting it. A copy of an old O'Day brochure has a diagram that at least suggests large genoas were available as original equipment. At 135% I don't believe it's larger than any other headsail used by O'Day 23's at the club while racing, and they've never been protested. So anyone who complains is protesting not the sail but the fact that I'm winning. Or maybe the material.
    upload_2018-7-10_10-3-10.png
     


  4. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,761 posts, 2,092 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    There is no such thing as an O'day 23 'One Design'. Such a rule would mandate the one or two sails that can be used for racing. For most OD boats, it is a 100% and if a second is allowed, a 135,140,or 150. As nothing like that exists for the 23, you should be allowed to use the biggest sail that PHRF allows in your region without a penalty. This is either a 150 or 155%. That picture shows at least a 150%. The trick is getting the right sheeting angle to the block.

    There is no limitation on sailcloth unless outlined in the NOR or SIs, which of course you have none.
     


  5. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Thanks Jackdaw... so far sheeting angle doesn't seem to be a problem. So the only question left becomes material.
     


  6. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,761 posts, 2,092 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Well like I said, unless your club (via NOR or SI) limit it, laminate is OK. PHRF rules will not limit it in any way, unless it its for a cruising class fleet, which normally mandates dacron only.
     


  7. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Ah, I see you did say that... sorry for my thick skull...
    So as a hypothetical, if there was only one guy complaining, and he went out and bought some laminated sail to compete, his argument would vanish... cool.
    Thanks again!
     


  8. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    PS... technically, it's not just a "cruising class" fleet, but "all boat" so us with cruisers race the same race with Flying Scots, the occasional Capri 14, a Windsurfer etc... only broken into "divisions" later...
     


  9. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Followup: If I were sailing something that DID have a class rule, say a Catalina 22, in these races I'd be held to ALL those class rules, including equipment and behavior (like not raising the swing keel) etc, per RRS78.1, right?
     


  10. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,419 posts, 524 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    I can tell you that the J22's and J24's aren't restricted to class sails when racing PHRF in our area. I'm not dragging out the rule book for 78.1. Normally for a boat that can carry a 150, you get the rating with the 150. If you rate the boat with a 135 you get a little time. A little more time for the 110. I'm not sure what they do with the J24's and J22's when they use a non class jib. Our J24 rate 174 cruising and the J22 182, I think. Our PHRF handicapper used to give a credit for roller reefing (Which should go away if it hasn't already) and for dacron sails. No penalty for laminate.
     


  11. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,170 posts, 192 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    PHRF of the Chesapeake applies a credit of 6 or 9 seconds per mile for roller furling headsails. (6 for drums below deck and 9 above). They will not apply that credit for some laminate headsails per the following criteria: "Roller furling headsails made before January 1, 2001 and constructed of aramid (i.e., Kevlar™, etc.) or carbon material are not allowed roller furling credits. Roller furling headsails built after December 31, 2000, must be of woven material, or have woven taffeta outer skins, and have a woven leech and foot cover of at least 4 oz UV protected woven material to be eligible for a rating adjustment."
     


  12. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,419 posts, 524 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    It do get complicated while we're trying to keep it simple.
     


  13. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    39 posts, 0 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Shemandr: Nice to hear from a fellow LIer... 78.1: "While a boat is racing, her owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with her class rules ..." There is no qualification limiting this to Class races, or exempting mixed-class races.

    Davidasailor26 (et al): Why is Kevlar and Carbon considered different for different manufacture dates?
     


  14. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,170 posts, 192 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    I don't know what PHRF of Chesapeake's rationale was for drawing a line there. I suspect they wanted to change their rules along the way but didn't want to hurt the handicap of people who had just bought new multi-thousand dollar sails. Unless @Jackdaw or some of the sailmakers who frequent this site have any further insight?
     



20% OFF innovative boat clips!
FixClip holds laundry, tools, anything to rails and life lines even in strong winds.
Stainless documentation placard
Who said a documentation placard cant be beautiful? Brushed stainless with laser-fused numerals.
Flexible steel chafe pads
Innovative new product made of flexible, laser cut stainless steel. Must see!
Ready-made sheets and halyards
Now faster than ever, our calculator tells you what sizes you need.