Head Games...Oh No!
- Thread starter Jtcf78911
- Start date
Sounds like a bad "foot" valve at the base of the pump.. it is supposed to open when you pull up the pump, admitting stuff from the bowl.. then it closes on the downstroke so the pump can push the stuff through the joker and into the tank.. if the foot is stuck open, the stuff will swish back and forth between bowl and pump without building enough pressure to make stuff move through the joker. Part # 19 in the little parts list in this link:
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=309371
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=309371
I've been away from my office all day, so I'm just getting into this. I'm going back to the OP's first post:
But first we need to get rid of the water in the bowl that won't go down. DO NOT USE A PLUNGER! That will mess up all the seals, o-rings etc in the pump. Has the pump gotten progressively harder to pump? If so, that's a pretty strong indication that something downstream of the toilet is creating back pressure that's preventing the toilet from flushing. Since 99% of the time, the culprit is a blocked tank vent, let's start with it:
Rarely is there ever a blockage in the vent LINE...it's almost always in two places--the vent thru-hull and the other end of the vent line, the vent fitting on the tank and that end of the hose. So start by scraping out the vent thru-hull (mud daubers love to build their nests in 'em)...use an ice pick, screwdriver blade--whatever works. If there's a screen in it, knock it out...screens cause more problems than they prevent. If that doesn't result in a rush of air--and maybe waste too if the tank is full--you need to clean out the other end of the vent. Do NOT remove the vent line from the tank until you've relieved any pressure in it by very carefully--and with a hose at the ready--loosening the deck pumpout cap. (I'd make sure to be upwind of it too.) No eruption, any pressure has dissipated making safe to remove the vent line from the tank. Warming it with a blow dryer will make it a lot easier to remove. Scrape out the vent fitting and that end of the vent line, replace the vent line. Now try flushing the toilet. If the bowl still won't empty, we need to look at other possibilities.
The next most likely scenario is sea water mineral buildup in the toilet discharge line. It can reduce the diameter of a 1.5" hose to less than 1/2". Checking for that requires removing the discharge fitting from the toilet and checking both the joker valve and the hose...which you prob'ly don't want to do until we get the bowl empty. So if clearing the tank vent doesn't work, it's time to break out a dinghy bailer and bucket or a shop vac.
Groco doesn't see fit to include any instructions in their catalog or on their website, but I have the trouble-shooting guide for the Groco HF and also the parts list and exploded drawing for it. They're not websites, they're documents...I can send 'em to you if you'll send me a PM that includes your email address.
The Groco HF is a pretty decent compact toilet and HF is the current version, so I wouldn't jump to replace it. I agree that it needs a rebuild, unless it was new when you bought the boat. How long has it been--since you lubricated the pump?
But first we need to get rid of the water in the bowl that won't go down. DO NOT USE A PLUNGER! That will mess up all the seals, o-rings etc in the pump. Has the pump gotten progressively harder to pump? If so, that's a pretty strong indication that something downstream of the toilet is creating back pressure that's preventing the toilet from flushing. Since 99% of the time, the culprit is a blocked tank vent, let's start with it:
Rarely is there ever a blockage in the vent LINE...it's almost always in two places--the vent thru-hull and the other end of the vent line, the vent fitting on the tank and that end of the hose. So start by scraping out the vent thru-hull (mud daubers love to build their nests in 'em)...use an ice pick, screwdriver blade--whatever works. If there's a screen in it, knock it out...screens cause more problems than they prevent. If that doesn't result in a rush of air--and maybe waste too if the tank is full--you need to clean out the other end of the vent. Do NOT remove the vent line from the tank until you've relieved any pressure in it by very carefully--and with a hose at the ready--loosening the deck pumpout cap. (I'd make sure to be upwind of it too.) No eruption, any pressure has dissipated making safe to remove the vent line from the tank. Warming it with a blow dryer will make it a lot easier to remove. Scrape out the vent fitting and that end of the vent line, replace the vent line. Now try flushing the toilet. If the bowl still won't empty, we need to look at other possibilities.
The next most likely scenario is sea water mineral buildup in the toilet discharge line. It can reduce the diameter of a 1.5" hose to less than 1/2". Checking for that requires removing the discharge fitting from the toilet and checking both the joker valve and the hose...which you prob'ly don't want to do until we get the bowl empty. So if clearing the tank vent doesn't work, it's time to break out a dinghy bailer and bucket or a shop vac.
Groco doesn't see fit to include any instructions in their catalog or on their website, but I have the trouble-shooting guide for the Groco HF and also the parts list and exploded drawing for it. They're not websites, they're documents...I can send 'em to you if you'll send me a PM that includes your email address.
West Marine will price match...Because the Raritan works so well, the current owner's wife will love you.
Lesson 2, West Marine is not always the best source for economical marine parts. As mentioned above, the SBO store sells the pump assembly for the Raritan PHII for less than a new one. And Defender.com sells the PHII for about $75 less than WM. https://www.defender.com/product3.j...ne-toilet&path=-1|51|2234284|2234286&id=10301
From what you describe in your later post, it does sound like a joker valve. They should be replaced every year or two or as soon as you notice that it's not working as well as it should.
Don't forget to buy Peggie Hall's book. A well spent $20 or so.
You can always siphon it out, kinda like you do gasoline.
A good shot of white liquor right handy helps a lot too.
Important safety tip.
A good shot of white liquor right handy helps a lot too.
Important safety tip.
I have one of those portable manual bilge pumps that I used once to empty the toilet on a friends boat when the toilet quit working. https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--manual-bilge-pumps--P011_330_003_501?recordNum=2. They are available online. You just search for manual bilge pump.
They're a lot less expensive at Home Depot
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siphon-King-Utility-Hand-Pump-48074/305128011
Even less at Academy Sports Attwood® Hand Bilge Pump
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siphon-King-Utility-Hand-Pump-48074/305128011
Even less at Academy Sports Attwood® Hand Bilge Pump
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Check SBO as well, they were able to beat best traveler prices. As far as the Raritan conversion, I think SBO is the ONLY game in town for that kit.
If the pump is just going up and down without resistance or pressure with the seawater closed with the pump in the dry bowl position it should pull the bowl contents into the pump then if there was a clog in the joker or hose you wouldn't be able to pump it down, you would have a full pump and no way to push it out. It sounds to me like the flapper at the bottom of the pump is broken so if you pull waste into the pump it just goes back to the bowl when you push it down. It is just like a check valve, it opens to let waste into the pump then closes when you push down on the handle. If it broke off or stuck open there would be no resistance back to the bowl and nothing would be forced through the joker valve. Empty the bowl as best you can, remove the outlet hose and seawater hose. three screws hold the pump assembly on the base, the flapper is below that, if it isn't the flapper then you now have the pump off and can rebuild it. I have the same head and have rebuilt it a few times. Here's an outfit that sells individual parts for the HF. The flapper is 11 bucks. https://www.marinesan.com/Groco-HF-parts-s/111.htm
Replacing one part at a time is like making a batch of cookies and baking 'em one cookie at a time. If one part is completely worn out, they're all worn enough to fail very soon. So if it's been at least 5 years since the pump was rebuilt, replace everything while you have it off the base.
However, Groco told me years ago that the average lifespan of the HF is 9-11 years...so if it's at least that old, I'd replace it instead of rebuilding it.
-- Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
However, Groco told me years ago that the average lifespan of the HF is 9-11 years...so if it's at least that old, I'd replace it instead of rebuilding it.
-- Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Apparently you missed the word "average" in my previous post. It's only the pump that wears out (ok, so can the seat and lid, but never mind) So you're correct that you'd only have to replace the pump if you're replacing it with identical new. But if you're switching to a different toilet, the new pump isn't likely to fit the existing base, so you'd need to replace it too.
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein